(no subject)
May. 5th, 2010 12:02 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sorcyressA bunch of years ago, I had a summer where multiple people admitted to being into me, which was both awesome and more than a bit "what?" But the end result was that I made a comment-screened post on the subject, asking "why?!"
((Sometimes I am unabashed in my need for ego-boosting))
A couple weeks ago, I was having a conversation with a friend in which they mentioned "I have no idea what boys see in you"1. Because I am the queen of insidiously low self-esteem, my response was the highly rational and very helpful "I don't know either."
It triggered thought though, and so I've spent spare brainwaves from the last few weeks trying to sort out just what it is exactly that makes me That Girl. It remains a very true observation that I am --people, especially boys, like me. I can't help this, nor do I particularly want to, really.
The callous and to my mind logical first thought of "they like me because I put out" is presumably untrue, since as far as I can tell, nothing about my public persona indicates that I do so for strangers, and it's not like I have sex particularly indiscriminately, or really, much at all. Everyone I've shared a bed with over the last four years was a friend first, which means that they liked me *before* we got naked. Furthermore, I have male friends who would probably be quite willing to get sexy with me, but we specifically haven't, and they still find me worth hanging out with. So, whatever it is, it's not the sex thing.
The theory that I've been working on that I feel has the most weight to it is closely related to an essay that was posted on Polyamorous Misanthrope, and brought to my attention by Gabity-Gabe. The essay is about a boy who is extremely well liked by women, and posits that the reason he is so well-liked is because he genuinely enjoys the company of and platonic interaction with women. He doesn't just talk to women in the hopes of pussy, but because of the actual person around it.
Pretty much my whole life, I have had close male friends, often more so than female ones. This is because I really quite like males. I could not tell you what particular quality that leads me to enjoy male company more than female, but there must be some reason that makes it easier for me to make friends with other boys2 than with other girls2. I really do honestly enjoy the company of males, even when I'm not expecting to sleep with them.
This idea is strengthened by a theory I've had for a good long time now --namely, that someone being attracted to you is a *deeply* attractive trait. So, using that, we get the idea that my enjoying the company of males is something that they enjoy, and makes them more likely to enjoy the company of me.
Going even deeper with the above thought, we reach the idea that I am, for whatever degree of intensity or intimacy, attracted to a noticeable percentage of humanity. I fall just a little bit in love every other time I get on the subway. While I have definite physical types I prefer, none of them matter in the presence of an honest smile. If you're reading these words, I am probably attracted to you, at least a little bit, because you are human and alive and I find that absolutely fascinating. Humanity is beautiful, and each individual uniquely so.3
I've got a few other ideas as to what it is my boys see in me as well (and I haven't even engaged in the highly scientific response of just asking them and seeing if there are any common patterns) but I think that the fact that I really like boys, for who they are, is a pretty good start.
And now I open it up to you guys. What is it that people see in That Person that makes them so bloody attractive? Why do certain people just attract everyone and manage to get all the dates?
And sure, let's be egotistical here. What is it about me specifically that's just so damn attractive? Because I *still* don't see it.
~Sor
MOOP!
1: This made sense in context
2: My mind *insisted* that this wording was correct, and I can't really say I disagree with it.
3: Man, I am such a hippie some days. But it's true!
((Sometimes I am unabashed in my need for ego-boosting))
A couple weeks ago, I was having a conversation with a friend in which they mentioned "I have no idea what boys see in you"1. Because I am the queen of insidiously low self-esteem, my response was the highly rational and very helpful "I don't know either."
It triggered thought though, and so I've spent spare brainwaves from the last few weeks trying to sort out just what it is exactly that makes me That Girl. It remains a very true observation that I am --people, especially boys, like me. I can't help this, nor do I particularly want to, really.
The callous and to my mind logical first thought of "they like me because I put out" is presumably untrue, since as far as I can tell, nothing about my public persona indicates that I do so for strangers, and it's not like I have sex particularly indiscriminately, or really, much at all. Everyone I've shared a bed with over the last four years was a friend first, which means that they liked me *before* we got naked. Furthermore, I have male friends who would probably be quite willing to get sexy with me, but we specifically haven't, and they still find me worth hanging out with. So, whatever it is, it's not the sex thing.
The theory that I've been working on that I feel has the most weight to it is closely related to an essay that was posted on Polyamorous Misanthrope, and brought to my attention by Gabity-Gabe. The essay is about a boy who is extremely well liked by women, and posits that the reason he is so well-liked is because he genuinely enjoys the company of and platonic interaction with women. He doesn't just talk to women in the hopes of pussy, but because of the actual person around it.
Pretty much my whole life, I have had close male friends, often more so than female ones. This is because I really quite like males. I could not tell you what particular quality that leads me to enjoy male company more than female, but there must be some reason that makes it easier for me to make friends with other boys2 than with other girls2. I really do honestly enjoy the company of males, even when I'm not expecting to sleep with them.
This idea is strengthened by a theory I've had for a good long time now --namely, that someone being attracted to you is a *deeply* attractive trait. So, using that, we get the idea that my enjoying the company of males is something that they enjoy, and makes them more likely to enjoy the company of me.
Going even deeper with the above thought, we reach the idea that I am, for whatever degree of intensity or intimacy, attracted to a noticeable percentage of humanity. I fall just a little bit in love every other time I get on the subway. While I have definite physical types I prefer, none of them matter in the presence of an honest smile. If you're reading these words, I am probably attracted to you, at least a little bit, because you are human and alive and I find that absolutely fascinating. Humanity is beautiful, and each individual uniquely so.3
I've got a few other ideas as to what it is my boys see in me as well (and I haven't even engaged in the highly scientific response of just asking them and seeing if there are any common patterns) but I think that the fact that I really like boys, for who they are, is a pretty good start.
And now I open it up to you guys. What is it that people see in That Person that makes them so bloody attractive? Why do certain people just attract everyone and manage to get all the dates?
And sure, let's be egotistical here. What is it about me specifically that's just so damn attractive? Because I *still* don't see it.
~Sor
MOOP!
1: This made sense in context
2: My mind *insisted* that this wording was correct, and I can't really say I disagree with it.
3: Man, I am such a hippie some days. But it's true!
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
on 2010-05-05 04:45 am (UTC)One theory, though, is that with you, it is very easy to get to know You. You talk about masks, but even your masks are honest and reflective of a definate aspect of the real you, even if you're using them to hide a different real you. I suppose, with most people ,the only thing I can see about them is their traits. With you, I get to see beyond that without having to know you for years beforehand. (although perhaps it helps)
no subject
on 2010-05-05 01:16 pm (UTC)To riff on that a bit: there are things you're comfortable being open about that most people aren't, which makes other people feel safe and honored that they get to hear about those things from you, and also want to. . . not 'take care of you,' but, do what they can to make you happy? I dunno. It's too early in the morning.
no subject
on 2010-05-05 05:15 pm (UTC)I appreciate that you made a difference between "take care of you" and "make you happy". I don't need no one to take care of me, nope! [/falsedefiant]
***
As for you, Tucker, you are totes awesome and attractive, even if we haven't gotten a lot of chance to interact. You post about interesting books, and give snippets of where I wish I had grown up, as opposed to where I did. You're good at playing games, and we should totally play some sometime. And your icon is a fish playing a saxophone, and well, I like things like that.
~Sor
no subject
on 2010-05-06 04:45 am (UTC)no subject
on 2010-05-05 05:03 pm (UTC)That, and I've got just as many bad traits --I'm weepy, and disorganized, and forgetful and sometimes a little callous. But yes, I do have some pretty fantastic ones too.
...huh. I had not thought of that. I do tend to be extremely open about whatever I can, simply because I think people need to know that there are weird people out there, and they are not all harmful stereotypes. So if I can let people know that I'm a geek, a feminist, a survivor, poly, bi, etc...it'll help.
(I still keep tight masks over my emotions, though. Emotions are for me alone.)
***
Swingsy, you are awesome and attractive! You have a quiet and contemplative nature that let's you make really good observations about humanity and the world. You're stable and strong, and willing to help support other people, which is really sweet and good of you. You have a good smile, and are willing to put up with teasing from the people you love, and tease them back in turn.
Also, you cook. What's not to adore?
~Sor
no subject
on 2010-05-05 06:53 pm (UTC)Also, you cook. What's not to adore?
*totally agrees and seconds and thirds this!*
Best Eggs Benedict Ever.
no subject
on 2010-05-05 06:20 am (UTC)"The essay is about a boy who is extremely well liked by women, and posits that the reason he is so well-liked is because he genuinely enjoys the company of and platonic interaction with women. He doesn't just talk to women in the hopes of pussy, but because of the actual person around it."
I have to say that that would definitely attract me.
Specifically as far as you're concerned, well, I didn't really talk to you much (except for vaguely thinking you seemed cool/geeky) until an incident: Tho was reading his LJ and said to me "Huh, have you been talking to Sor" and I was like "Not really, why?" and he said something like "Oh she's trying to give up saying words like Lame" (I had been correcting myself on it over the last few weeks before that and Tho noticed). At which point I was like, okay, this is someone who knows why people need to stop using words like that. I'm going to jump to the conclusion that you don't generally understand this without understanding about things like feminism and humanism and other isms and this is someone I can absolutely trust, not to never fuck up but to deal with it and improve when they do, someone who will understand when I get worked up about things, someone who is likely to agree with me on a variety of things, and someone who will call me out when *I* fuck up and I want to be friends with this person RIGHT NOW and maybe fangirl/crush on them for a bit. So as far as "because of the actual person around it" goes, yeah, you have proven yourself to be someone that puts effort into treating everyone as human beings. Although to be fair this sort of thing might make someone attractive-as-a-friend but not necessarily attractive-as-anything-more.
Also on the other hand, as far as being friends with men and such goes, a quick count of my good friends through my life gives about 30% girls, only 10-20% if you go by my inner circle. I've yet to have to have them all swooning over me though, alas, so there must be something else you're doing there (When you work it out, let me know what).
But yeah, that's my two cents.
no subject
on 2010-05-05 05:39 pm (UTC)I am, of course, perfectly happy to be attractive-as-a-friend, and often moreso than attractive-as-anything-more. Which I think is part of the people > pussy thing, if I'm only into people who want to shag me, I'm not actually getting across that interest in all people in general that I feel is a Good Trait.
I don't really have an idea what my percentages of close male vs female friends is anymore. My Best Friend is female, all the people I'm currently dating are male, and other degrees of intimacy fall out from there. As for the swooning...well, step one is to be poly, since it's not actually helpful or easy to deal with socially if everyone is swooning after you and you have to turn them all down. Turning some of them down is fine, but all of them and you'll just start to feel bad.
(I always feel bad when I turn people down. I hate breaking hearts.)
I like your two cents!
***
Racklesaurus, you are superawesome, by the way! You have a pretty good understanding of gender and sexuality, and are willing to challenge people and shake them out of the standard oppressive dichotomy (see also, dance). All those things you said about feminism and humanism and being a good person? You do them too, and I *really* appreciate having more people in my life who get it on their own, and understand why I think these things matter.
I am sad that you are being chemgeeky in EnZed, and think that, like Tho, you ought to move stateside and become a famous chemist. Lots of good schools and such in Boston! :D
I like you plenty, and am glad we're becoming closer friends.
~Sor
no subject
on 2010-05-05 09:08 pm (UTC)I always feel bad when I turn people down.
Oh gods. I have to tell you about Orange Glasses Guy. I was sitting in a STAR Cosc lecture (that's like stage 1 cosc with special adaptations for highschool students) and I was sitting next to this guy with orange glasses. He passed me a note saying "Hi" or something and so I passed it back saying "Hi!" or something back. He asked me if I had much on on the weekends, I wrote back "Nope not much! Just swimming and homework" and he wrote back "would you like to?" and 14!Rackle suddenly got a clue and was like "Thanks but no". 14!Rackle felt bad about this, so she drew a smiley face underneath. I hope he didn't think I was mocking him >_>
i'm not a boy but a tomboy, does that qualify me to respond?
on 2010-05-05 09:45 am (UTC)And my response is this: i think it's that bit where you said:
"I fall just a little bit in love every other time I get on the subway. While I have definite physical types I prefer, none of them matter in the presence of an honest smile."
And you know what? People totally pick up on that whether they realize it or not 'cause it makes you glow in their direction a way that makes people feel it on a more visceral level and such...
i'm not saying this well at all but for myself as an example: You are not particularly my type but i'm drawn to you1 largely because of your caring and kindness and my innards can tell that you are a little bit in love with that bit of humanity that i carry around with me. (even if on my bad days i totally can't figure out why you or anyone would have anything to do with me)
Soyar, People Like That. *nods*
. o O (man, it was clearer in my head; i so fail at words this morning ;P)
1: 'course i have the same tendency that you have there.. falling a little in love every other time i go out.. the musician at the Strawberry Festival, the androgynous chick who waited on us (and i shamelessly (for me; tend to be waay too shy usually) flirted with) at Elmo's, and so on >.>
Re: i'm not a boy but a tomboy, does that qualify me to respond?
on 2010-05-05 05:50 pm (UTC)Tho said something once about how I had a knack for making people feel important and loved and wanted, which I kinda agree with. I am pretty good at focusing energy on one person for a little bit, and I do know that having energy focussed on you is important and nice.
Your little bit of humanity is awesome, and you're silly to think people wouldn't want to hang with you.
(Yay flirting with waitresses!)
***
Also, Har, you are adorably attractive, and I love you to bits and pieces! You have the biggest heart of anyone I know, I think, and despite having had your trust all trampled on before, you manage to be open and willing to trust new people anyways, which makes them feel special. You are unbelievably strong, even if you can't see it, stronger than most other people would be if they had to fill your shoes. You have an absolute love for life, which shines through and makes you a joy to be around, because you are so totally filled with joy. You love like an awesomesauce lovey thing, and I'm really really glad I know you. And of course, you give the *best* hgugles!
~Sor
*glee*
on 2010-05-05 06:26 pm (UTC)And for that i am eternally grateful and THAT is why i (and tons of everybody else) love you. 'Cause you would do that for a needy wee ferret or your Best Friend regardless. *nod*
*gives more of those aforementioned hgugles*
no subject
on 2010-05-05 10:50 am (UTC)Confidence. You have a brain and a personality that pleases you, you know how to use them and you're not AFRAID to use them for fear of offending someone.
Also, you're curious and interested in things, especially things other people are passionate about and talk about at length... and you're not ashamed to ask questions. (Again, back to the confidence thing)
Most girls are socialized to "shut up, do what you're told, stop thinking for yourself, and don't make waves". Knowing what I do of your Mom, I think it's a safe bet you WEREN'T brought up to be ashamed of who you are in the name of avoiding discord.
Confidence is hella sexy. Despite your insecurities from time to time, you have a hell of a lot more of it than I ever did.
Can I be you when I grow up?
no subject
on 2010-05-05 05:52 pm (UTC)Reeling. Not sure I've ever had something so flattering said of me ever. Proper response later.
<3
~Sor
no subject
on 2010-05-05 12:33 pm (UTC)Kat, I'm a year older than you, but I feel younger sometimes because you just seem so much more confident and at home with both yourself and other people than I am. That, from a person who is also friendly, considerate, thoughtful, intelligent, fun, and a pleasure to be around, is a pretty huge factor. You're the whole package.
Plus you give wonderful hugs.
no subject
on 2010-05-05 01:11 pm (UTC)I've observed, over my years, the only pattern I can ferret out from That Person-ism:
Having an active and engaged life without a noticeable regard for what other's think of said activity and engagement.
This can be expanded in a few directions, all of which hold true... Hobbies, general lack of free time, optimism, confidence, etc...
For you, specifically, Kat -- it's your smile and warmth combined with your strong feminist slant along with the accompanying female body hair also combined with your love of dance also also combined with the fact that you almost without fail care.
The flip side can follow; the heartless bitch that is just constantly aloof -- she can be That Girl, too... But you're most certainly only barely enough aloof to catch a piece of that part of it.
no subject
on 2010-05-05 03:55 pm (UTC)Also, you dance which is another mating invite. Women who are ovulating send out even more mating signals while dancing than at other times. While dancing you move in a way that tells the male brain that you're looking for a partner. Being a dancer has likely affected the way you move even while not dancing.
Even if you asked every guy why they found you so intriguing it probably wouldn't be that enlightening. You might find a physical trait they all like or an aspect of your personality, but you'd likely also get a lot of "I dunno, there's just something about you". So, you see, it's a combination of your looks, spirit and biology.
no subject
on 2010-05-05 04:35 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2010-05-05 04:43 pm (UTC)As for the gender bias, well... I have my own snarky misanthropic theory on that. Interesting people can be perceived as potential partners(1), or potential competition. While I think all genders can be paranoid enough to view most interesting people as competition, opposite genders of attraction gain a bit more incentive to see you as a potential partner, whereas people of the same gender demographic as yourself have more incentive to see you as competition.
(1) general sense, wide range; friends, lovers, tribe, coworkers, and so forth
no subject
on 2010-05-05 06:17 pm (UTC)I think that social in-group signifiers are critically important for first impressions. The availability of information is a major criterion, I suspect, for mutual attraction. Plenty of people are awesome, but how does one discern that?
When we met, I had no idea who or what you'd be until I arrived, at which point I think the most salient signifiers were your collar and plaid shirt. The collar, especially, is unusual, and I took it to mean that you were almost certainly sex-positive in some way, probably kinky, possibly of the DIY/punk persuasion (given the context of your outfit - I think your card also helped reinforce that thought), and possibly collared by a specific person. From our initial conversation, it was clear that you're clever, which is sort of a prerequisite for being ... anyone I give a damn about, really. Shortly, I think, Doctor Who somehow came up, at which point I was sure that I was with "my kind of folks". When you mentioned polyamory, I knew you were really on the level (and began to think much more freely about potential sexy interactions).
Later on, we danced, and although it was clear that you had a great deal more experience than I, you had no apparent qualms about showing me the basics, and you seemed to enjoy my company. We switched partners a few times, but you stuck pretty close, which indicated some level of (not necessarily sexual) interest in me. Besides that, it was fun! So, our dancing spoke well for both your kindness and your interest. Um. And you have nice hair.
By the way, don't underestimate the importance of one's appearing sexually available, even in cases where one isn't actually sexually available (or even active) or doesn't frequently follow up on possible sexual interactions. Appearing sexually available and putting out are orthogonal. Kissing is sexual; even flirting is sexy, and some people do what looks like flirting without even noticing. It's possible that even simply saying one is poly increases the likelihood that, all else being equal, anyone nonmonogamous person who might be into you will be into you. Oh - and, having looked at last at the other comments, I'm reminded of something I meant to say! One of the main ways in which people build intimacy is by admitting or doing things that are not perfectly socially acceptable, by sharing their secrets, their oddities, and their personal thoughts. Our very first conversation quickly became one that I wouldn't have started with just any random stranger, but - because you were open and unsecretive - I happily engaged in it. I wouldn't be surprised to hear you say that many of your friendships or attractions began that way.
So, there's a hypothesis set for you: my quick attraction to you was facilitated initially by behavioral and object-based signifiers suggesting that we belonged to similar social groups (and thus would have congruent values, social expectations, and so on), which prompted friendly interaction; then was further enabled by conversation confirming and expanding those social group hypotheses and establishing relatively rapid intimacy; and was later cemented by dancing, which established physical rapport and evidenced your interest and your kindness. So, not only do you have many traits I seek in friends and lovers, but you also acted and presented yourself in a way that both made them obvious and predisposed me to look for them.
I hope that was the sort of explanation you're interested in! Because we spent so little time in person before mutual interest became obvious, and spent the very beginning of that time primarily in isolation, it's actually a terrific case study.
no subject
on 2010-05-05 06:28 pm (UTC)*Tho's thing about being very into one person, and that being good, except when I'm doing it to other people
*JoshZed's thing about wearing geeky shirts to geeky conventions, and marking what *kind* of geek you are
*Being a good long term investment vs being a good short term investment (fun vs stable)
Anyone reading this comment...oooo, you're getting *secret knowledge* on what further ramblings I have that are related to this topic.
~Sor
no subject
on 2010-05-05 11:34 pm (UTC)First, meta-comments -- I second:
* what Swing said about being easy to get to know (never mind that awkward phone conversation 10000 years ago...)
* what jazzfish said about being comfortable with yourself and "wanting to
take care of you" (which I internally code as "wanting [you] to do well and succeed and be happy", which is within hailing distance of what he said)* what Har said about appreciating people -- I want to rephrase this as something like "appreciating the spark/glint of life in a person", but that's probably not quite it)
* what jannyblue said, and especially the bit about female socialization
* what lordrefa said about caring (though I have to disagree about the "heartless bitch" also being capable of being That One; I don't think I've ever been attracted to that sort, and doubt I would be capable of it)
* what ncarraway said about Dr. Quis -- though more as evidence of a general ability to comprehend complex abstractions than as a specific shared fandom
ms_hecubus's comments strike me as popular cynicism without any real supporting evidence. I can give my counter-evidence if you'd like.
I would add that probably hanging out with rather a lot of different people (at cons, dances, and so forth), interacting with them in meaningful ways, and generally being at ease with oneself* (or at least appearing so) while possessing a good mix of obvious and non-obvious positive traits (obvious: e.g. physical attractiveness; less obvious: intelligence takes a little longer to evaluate) is a pretty good recipe for acquiring a lot of friends and admirers.
(*Put me in a room full of potentially-interesting people whom I now have the opportunity to interact with socially, and it's curl-up-in-a-corner-and-panic time. ...unless I have access to an appropriate musical instrument, and unambiguous permission to use it.)
I have further reactions, but they probably have more to do with my peculiarities than with you, and probably rather a lot to do with gender (and dysphoria thereof). Pord me if I should try to set down the essay that seems to be trying to write itself in my head.
no subject
on 2010-05-05 11:36 pm (UTC)Also, you're an awesome-people-attractor. Just about everyone I've ever met through you was in some manner awesome and attractive, and that reinforces the attractiveness of yourself to me. Because good taste in people is important, but also at least somewhat because if you have all these awesome people around you and still treat _me_ as awesome, you know, it might be that I just might deserve it.
Also, you're perpetually working to be a better person. Is good, and important, and definitely highly attractive.
Also, you're articulate. Even when you're totally babbling. Need I even say how attractive I find articulateness?
The incidental trivialities such as physical gorgeousness and run-hands-through-able hair are minor, but not entirely to be discounted.
no subject
on 2010-05-06 12:47 am (UTC)Examples: Women who pout or do passive aggressive stuff when they're not happy instead of just saying what's wrong. Or women who try not to show how much they like a guy because they are afraid of scaring him away. Or women who hint at things when men tend to be impervious to hints.
They are going on bad information handed down by generations of women and awful magazines like Cosmo. This stuff drives men nuts. When they meet a woman who says what she means and doesn't force them to play guessing games about what they want they think they've died and gone to heaven.
Anyway that's been my experience, and your post does remind me of my life when I was in my early 20s.
no subject
on 2010-05-06 05:07 am (UTC)*Not to denigrate meeting people through an internet bulletin board. I know you are very close with several people you met through that same board. I'm talking about you and I specifically :-)
no subject
on 2010-05-06 04:39 pm (UTC)