(no subject)

[sorcyress]

Dear women* of the world:

If an action would be inappropriate if it was a male performing it on a female, this means it is also inappropriate if it is a female performing it on a female.

Or in less subtle terms, get your fucking hands away from my goddamn tits, especially if I hardly know you. Your random faux-groping of my chest? Is neither cute nor funny, it's uncomfortable, and now that I've actually clicked that it's sexual harassment, I will be reacting supremely unfavorably next time it occurs.

No love
Kat

*Why is this post to the women of the world and not to the men? Because thus far, I have never had a male acquaintance grab, or pretend to grab, my breasts. I'd love to keep it that way.

ETA: This is not to say that I am always against groping all the time. But I'd like it to have a reason, and I'd be overjoyed if you would ask for permission first. You know, like a decent human being and not a slimeball.

Comments

[londo.livejournal.com]

I support this, and would even broaden it further:

If an action would be inappropriate if it was a male performing it on a female, this means it is also inappropriate if it is a person of any gender performing it on a person of any gender.

[tirerim.livejournal.com]

True, though in this particular case the other possible combinations aren't quite as relevant...

(Not that it's fine for people I don't know well to grab my chest&emdash;it still makes me uncomfortable&emdash;but it is at a somewhat different level.)

[tirerim.livejournal.com]

(Argh, apologies for incorrectly encoded entities -- I always forget that that one isn't spelled out.)

Oh Great HTML Entity!

[woozle.livejournal.com]

Me too. I am *usually* saved by preview. Usually. >.>

Re: Oh Great HTML Entity!

[tirerim.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I really wish the in-line comment box just had a preview button—I know it's just one extra click to check the box, but that's enough that I usually don't do it. Plus I don't actually want it to check my spelling, just to preview the HTML.

Counter-example:

[herbertinc.livejournal.com]

If you're picking someone up (say, for a ballet lift) it is generally not inappropriate to pick a male up holding him at his chest level, where it is generally inappropriate to do so to a female, where a waist-lift is more appropriate. (Though generally waist lifts are easier, either way.)

In context, I understand and do not disagree with the sentiment of your statement, but I however believe the wording makes it too broad--the anatomical differences are still significant.

Love,
Herbert.

[kdsorceress.livejournal.com]

Oh definitely. But the particularly relevant problem for me has been strictly girls groping my breasts, hence my wording.

You're a good person, m'dear.

~Sor

[kirby1024.livejournal.com]

I also agree wholeheartedly with this statement. My broadening of the statement would typically just go to "Verbal consent or hands off!" regardless of gender or other indications, but this may be due to my time in the kink scene. It sometimes startles me exactly how little negotiation occurs in non-kink social groups. Really creepy at times.

[kdsorceress.livejournal.com]

You have just inspired my next poll, thank you.

(Which is to say, I'll reply more to this comment later)

~Sor

[lyrwen.livejournal.com]

Dear god yes, I have a friend who used to do that and it made me really uncomfortable. Possibly illogically, the fact that she's a woman did make me feel less uncomfortable than I would have otherwise though. Or maybe it wasn't that, but just that I felt she was trying to be funny, not make me uncomfortable. Or something. Actually that doesn't make it any better. Maybe it was the thought that people around us would have a different impression of what was going on (I can be very self concious like that).

I think I (used to?) get more than usually uncomfortable when women that didn't/don't know about me being bi got touchy feely with me. I'd always think "one day they'll find out and maybe they wouldn't have done that if they hadn't thought I was "safe" and they'll hate me, so I'm gonna sit awkwardly
in the corner now"

[tirerim.livejournal.com]

I think there's a definite perception among some people that some actions are more ok if the genders and preferences of the people involved mean that they couldn't be interpreted sexually. Possibly because some people actually are more okay with certain things in those circumstances. I don't think that's necessarily illogical, or at least not problematically so, since people don't really need to justify their reactions to being touched, in either direction. The problems come when assumptions are made about other people's preferences and levels of comfort.

(Hopefully that wasn't so vague that it won't make sense to anyone but me...)

[lyrwen.livejournal.com]

Not vague at all :) And yes, whether it's logical or not, that could well be it.

[herbertinc.livejournal.com]

I definitely get this. Generally while I may or may not be situationally comfortable with a straight girl grabbing my chest, it is rare that it makes me feel threatened. In general, it is my personal form of sexism that I will always be threatened more by unwanted male advances than unwanted female ones, and will never shrug off male groping the way I do female groping.

Knowing that I have probably groped you (and I mean kdsorceress, not you "lj user="tirerim">) in the past, since I'm known to do that sort of thing, I very much apologize if I made you uncomfortable, and I will refrain from it in the future without first obtaining your verbal permission. Though I will not retract my opinion that you (again, kdsorceress) have extremely nice breasts.

Love,
Herbert.

P.S. You (both kdsorceressand tirerim) have standing permission to grab my breasts when not vastly situationally inappropriate.

[kdsorceress.livejournal.com]

You've always been fine. As I recall various situations where you have groped me, you have always given me an indication that you wished to do so, and I invited the touch, for silliness, or whathaveyou. That, and I consider myself to know you decently well --I would certainly never describe you as merely an acquaintance, like some of the cases I am referring to.

~Sor

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Interesting that it's more weird for you with a woman who doesn't know you're bi.

I've been struggling for a little while to figure out why I'm [even] less likely to speak up when a girl makes me uncomfortable than when a guy does.

[thorog.livejournal.com]

For reference, you have permission to grope my chest.

[lyrwen.livejournal.com]

omgjelous, do I have permission to grope your chest?

[kdsorceress.livejournal.com]

Sweet. I will be sure to take advantage of that as appropriate.

~Sor

[dhs.livejournal.com]

I rarely get groped in the chest region. (I'm male.) On one memorable occasion though, I went to a Halloween party wearing a dress and one of the women there groped my "breasts". I was uncomfortable with it and complained immediately, but she didn't seem to think I was serious.

I think it was more of the "ha-ha this is funny because you know I'm not serious" attitude that bothered me, particularly as it came out of nowhere and wasn't part of something we shared, but rather something something she did to me. No. Actually the last is exactly the crux.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Exactly. And somehow a lot of women women think that the rules of "hey, let's have touch be mutually agreed on" only applies if it's a guy doing the touching.

[kdsorceress.livejournal.com]

I am disappointed to admit that I have been that girl before --back in tenth grade, when one of my best guy friends did a surprisingly passable job of dragging himself up for wacky tacky day. I'd like to think that I'd be much better about that sort of thing now.

The distinction betwen something two people share and something one person does to another is somewhat chilling, but I understand, emphaticaly, and I'm sorry it happened.

~Sor

[tolkienkookad.livejournal.com]

I've been going through these posts for a little while for fun reading.

I know I'm occasionally guilty of this one (though I do think a: I have been a little less bad about it since you first posted this and b: I do try to limit the groping to people I know well and know won't mind, though sometimes I misjudge) but I really have to say, the sentiment behind it is something I keep feeling around New Year's happenings.

For me, I'd like to put up a true-for-me blanket statement of my own: Physical contact is never extended as courtesy, and just because you see physical contact between me and someone else, does not mean you are entitled to the same treatment.

I hate the sheer number of people who move in for hugs when this house is packed. It is not a polite greeting for me. I hug people I know well and have a desire to hug. I do not wish to hug people who I have no desire to hug. I hate that so many of the New Year's goers make a large thing about it when I wave off their hugs. I try to do this as kindly as possible, but honestly -- I'm not going to accept a hug that will make me uncomfortable for decorum's sake.