Ageism pisses me off.

[sorcyress]

PRE-PRELIMINARY WARNING: This post was written in anger, and therefore should not be posted. It's spurred on by one person, but it's directed at a *lot* of you. Know that I still love you all. You just frustrate me sometimes.

PRELIMINARY WARNING: Look, I haven't ever seen any Trek before Sunday night, when I saw the movie. Just deal with it. If you're going to bitch at me for being woefully undereducated, go read Yagathai's rant about it first, because he probably said it better than you would.

So, Trek!

It was pretty much awesome. It had aliens and guns and fast cars and spaceships and flying motorcycle cops and bullies saying "affirmative" and Sylar, and a couple of explosions, and Chekov!¹ and no Chekov's gun, and Simon Pegg being adorable, and KIRK DEAR GODS KIRK! and only one green-skinned big breasted alien babe, and sloppy make-outs, and bonding, and all in all it was very very fun, and I kinda want to be a member of the Star Fleet Academy now.

Except.

And this is a big except.

Except you guys scare me. You guys scare me because this was my first Trek. I've not ever seen *any* of this before, and while I've got some small idea about the main characters and races and whatnot, I don't know any details. And the reaction to my admitting this is never "Well then, I recommend you start here, c'mon, let's go watch the first episode together."

The reaction is always "my god. I can't believe I've been talking to you for this long. what if I got tainted by your WRETCHED AND INEXCUSABLE IGNORANCE???"²

Forgive me. I'm young. My *parents* were too young to watch the original series when it was first broadcast. I'm twenty³, yes, I've had time, but oddly, I've been using that time to have my own damn childhood. I was busy watching The Powerpuff Girls, and Dexter's Lab, and Fairly Oddparents when I was growing up --I didn't have the time or the inclination to watch Star Trek, or old Doctor Who. Hell, I spent my entire childhood naturally averse to live action television; it's a wonder that I managed to ever watch anything of the style at all. I like cartoons. I like bright colours and amusing plots and people being able to bounce right back from being hurt.

I am trying my absolute best to be your perfect little geek prototype, and I'm getting fucking sick of it. You're right. I should watch all your tv shows, and movies, and Understand what it Truly means to be geek. I really really should⁴.

But if you're gonna keep telling me I'm uneducated and a fool for not knowing them already? If you're gonna yell at me for my "shortcomings" rather than give me any constructive advice about how to fix them? Fuck you, I think I'd rather stay ignorant.

~Sor
MOOP!

1: Proving that Sor has never actually gotten over her accent-lust, just her British-accent-lust. Sigh

2: Direct quote, used without permission.

3: ...in three months and a week or so.

4: As an aside the part that gets me most is that it doesn't matter how hard I try to pretend, I will *never* be at that same level of geek you are. Never. I was not alive when Rocky Horror came out. Douglas Adams's death didn't matter to me because I hadn't read anything by him when it happened. I've never been to a Trek convention, because the first great Trek conventions all happened before my parents bloody well met.

ETA: Okay, I'm pretty sure there was some level of facetiousness when he was abusing me for never having seen it. PLAY NICE, YOU GUYS.

Comments

[harena.livejournal.com]

Ohgods, i hope i never ever did that Ever! i am generally surprised when i find out someone is not a Trek fan but i am completely aware that few people that i know are as nearly rabid about it as i am and wouldn't dream being derisive (except humor only!) about it!

Ackack *hguglesmuchlyquickly*

That said, i have to remark that i do, in fact, remember watching the Original Series with my dad when i was about 6 years old and thinking, "i really like that guy with the pointy ears; he's Neat!" ^_^

*hguglessomemore*

[werewulf.livejournal.com]

I know we talked about this but to establish my geek parenting cred I must say that *I* saw the first episode of Star Trek when it was first broadcast. I was SCARED TO DEATH of it and my dad didn' t let me watch any more until I was older and it was in reruns.

And my first 15 or so conventions were all Star Trek specific.

And *I* offered to sit down and watch every single episode including Spock's Brain with you *grin*

Love,
your,
Mom

[thomsolo.livejournal.com]

You actually offered to watch Spock's Brain?!

[werewulf.livejournal.com]

I just pointed out that she should see all the eps, the good and the absolutely abysmal. Come on... who WOULDN'T want a remote controlled Spock of their very own.

[harena.livejournal.com]

Come on... who WOULDN'T want a remote controlled Spock of their very own.

Srsly.

And besides, it's fun to make fun of Spock's Brain! It's so MST3K, y'know?


What was even worse for me was that i read the novelization first which was ten times better than the actual show and then i saw the episode & was Crushed! CRUSHED, i tell you!

. o O (Brain and Brain? What is Brain?)(Heck, i feel like that all the time, man!)

[thomsolo.livejournal.com]

What about the animated series? :)

[werewulf.livejournal.com]

Oh absolutely the animated series. That stuff is canon as far as *I'M* concerned. And Yesteryear is such a fantastic episode, she MUST see it.

[forexample.livejournal.com]

It just dawned on me. We know Spock's brain comes out... so that IS Syler playing him.

[thomsolo.livejournal.com]

True fans do not harangue newcomers because of their "wretched and inexcusable ignorance". True fans welcome newcomers gracefully because they love to share... the more, the merrier. They can also acknowledge the faults of whatever fandom(s) they're in, without taking offense at someone pointed out said faults because they still like said fandom object(s).

Welcome to Trek geekery, Sor. Let us know if you have any questions. :D

[ancientsong.livejournal.com]

What a shame someone made you feel that way.

When I hear of things like this happening, I immediately go to, "Hmm, I wonder what it is that makes that person need to grab onto something that she or he can hold up and say, 'I belong!' (to this or that "club" [geek in this case])."

Regardless, I'm glad that you didn't give up on Trek just because someone was a nimrod to you about it. And honestly, I'll bet it was that person's misguided attempt to make you want to see the original series; s/he just didn't go about it very well.

ST TOS holds a very special place in my heart because it's the first television I ever saw in the States and that wasn't essentially Communist propaganda. We had been in the US only a few days and our next door neighbors invited us to their house to watch TV. I'd never seen a color TV before (very cool) and I'd certainly never seen science fiction. I didn't understand a word of English yet so it was a good thing that the episode was "The Empath" in which the crucial character (who wasn't Bones, Spock or Kirk) didn't speak. I fell in love immediately. So, I'd encourage you to watch some episodes. I think you'll get into them. And I'll be totally interested to hear your impressions of the original actors/characters when your first exposure was the folks from this movie.

It's kind of like a friend of mine who showed her son the Star Wars series in order (starting with the Phantom Menace) to see if it would make sense. Those of us who were around when the first movie came out, had certain expectations and prejudices that just weren't there when her son saw them. It's fascinating.

[marcmagus]

I hope you responded with, "My god, I can't believe I've been talking to you for this long. What if I got tainted by your WRETCHED AND INEXCUSABLE ASS-HATTERY???"

I'm going to maintain my faith in the human condition with the hope that the quoted reaction was offered with tongue very firmly in cheek.

I know my initial reaction when you told me was shock. Something was out of place in the world, that someone as fannish as you could have had no exposure to Trek. That you hadn't even seen a couple of isolated episodes or one or two of the movies seemed completely implausible.

I'm still surprised. I'd expect it would have just happened channel surfing at night, or someone would have shown you something, or you would have decided you wanted to see what everybody was talking about, or . . .. *shrug* It's weird to imagine you don't have that background.

---

It's not a personal failing on your part, it's not an obligation to fulfill, and not having it doesn't make you any less one of us. It does mean you're missing background that the overwhelming majority of us have in common (as yagathai alludes to), and that could result in your missing lots of references [and actual jokes], and probably occasionally exasperating people because you don't get something. Although, really, our culture is so steeped in Trek that I expect you get a lot of the stuff anyway just from exposure to discussion and reference and the like.

As for #4, that's not about "level" of geek, it's about personal history within geek culture. Which, while good for bragging-rights stories, I guess, doesn't really create a meaningful hierarchy.

[tirerim.livejournal.com]

<hug>

You are plenty geeky enough. There are a bunch of things for which you have more geek cred than I do, and I like it when you introduce me to them. And I like introducing you to things, too, partly because it's fun showing them to someone who hasn't seen them before, partly because it gives me an excuse to see them again myself (and in some cases it's been a long time).

And, um, one of the first things I did when I found out that you hadn't seen any Trek was to go compile a list of episodes to show you. And I don't know when we'll have time, but I promise, it will be fun. Though apparently I should add The Animated Series in, too. :-) (Not entirely sure why I didn't at first, actually...)

the pendulum swings, and, having swung, swings back...

[woozle.livejournal.com]

What's funny about this is that when I was growing up and thought Star Trek was really kind of neat, nobody else I knew would admit to having heard of it. The Doctor (#3) had yet to make his first appearance in the US airwaves (this was before cable, at least in our area), so at least they had an excuse for not having heard of Daleks.

This condition persisted for quite a number of years. Even some years later¹, I still felt privileged to be in the company of people who not only knew what Star Trek was but actually liked it.

In short, I'm used to dealing with people who haven't, you know, memorized the canon. (There was no "canon" in 1975, just a bunch of TV episodes.)

Later, I remember die-hard fans getting upset at the idea of TNG because they were afraid it wouldn't be true to the original show. I thought they were silly, and I laugh on their graves. (Like this: "Ha ha ha!") So I'm also familiar with some of the intolerance of which fandom is capable, and I find it stupid.

One doesn't need to be a Trekkie to be totally geeky and wonderful, and you are the living proof of this claim. (So there!)

Huggles,

Me.

¹My preliminary calculations, based on tentative memory-retrieval results, would indicate that this would have been at approximately a time during which you were busy gestating, or possibly as much as three years prior to that.

[benet.livejournal.com]

Like most geeks of my generation, I loved Trek as a kid, not because it was awesome but because it was what there was. When I got more into Reading The Stuff as an adolescent, I found other things that fed my squids more effectively, and I pretty much went off of Trek. Given how much richer a selection of SF media there is nowadays - it's a bit of a Golden Age, really - I'm not really shocked that someone under 25 would never have really imprinted on Star Trek. It's just one offering of many, and far from the most interesting.

Mind you - and I sort of blush to confess this, but it is so - I think I spent a lot of my adolescence semi-consciously distancing myself from that wful stereotype of the Trekkie which is how so many mundanes view fandom.

I was actually pretty surprised to find myself so stoked about the new movie!

[herbertinc.livejournal.com]

::cuddles::

People are stupid sometimes, especially about things they obsess about, be it Star Trek, classical literature, or cooking (Me to my brother: "How the hell did you make it to 16 without learning to boil water?! I can't believe I'm related to you!" [I'm not exaggerating. He had no idea how to tell if water was boiling.]). It is a common failing of geeks.

I would like to make the point though, that I would not call this ageism. I grew up watching the occasional Star Trek episode (my parents watched Voyager and DS9 and I saw the original series movies when I was very young), and know enough to get references, but not much more.

However, growing up only one year older than you, I know very little of The Powerpuff Girls, or Dexter's Lab, or Fairly Oddparents. I watched very little television. I know B thinks it's a moral outrage that I have no childhood memories of Sesame Street or The Muppets.

And don't even get me started on all the music I don't know. I didn't listen to the radio (besides BBC and NPR) and most of my parents music was showtunes, Really Classic Rock, classical, and opera. Basically I know nothing if someone hasn't introduced me to it.

Hell, I didn't have a peanut butter & jelly sandwich until after I stopped being able to eat real bread! (when I was 19).

You are certainly much more a geek than me. Most of my geek fluency has been picked up second hand, I've learned enough about Trek and Dr Who and anime and physics and linguistics and programming languages to get by without being bored to death by jargon.

But yeah. Popular culture, whether "mainstream" or geek or culinary is never as ubiquitous as it's proponents would like to think.

Forget about them and eat a cookie.

Love,
Herbert.

[tirerim.livejournal.com]

"Moral outrage" only applies to your lack of knowledge of Sam the American Eagle. ;-)

[marcmagus]

Your brother, at age 16, didn't know the definition of "boil"? That is surprising.

forget those goofs

[rrainew.livejournal.com]

you outgeek me any day of the week-and i used to come home from dates early to see star trek.
and isn't that pathetic? :)
i must admit that there hasn't really been a series that captured me like star trek did.
don't worry about foolish statements from foolish people-geek is not a competition, it's a recognition of kindred souls.

[jestingly-yours.livejournal.com]

Because I'm so sure people actually seriously truly consider you to be wretchedly and inexcusably ignorant, that can't possibly have been a statement made with even the smallest shred of sarcasm. :|

Besides, what, didn't you just post a post about how you would be shocked if you met someone who hadn't seen The Princess Bride or read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? WHAT NOW

[aristabulus.livejournal.com]

The aforementioned post: http://kdsorceress.livejournal.com/411572.html

I must concur, and call kettle along with jestingly_yours. What now, indeed.

Sure, the holier-than-thou Trekkies are a bunch of asses. There's people like that in just about every subculture. There is a rediculously huge amount of information out there. Stupendously, jaw dropping, brain exploding, HUGE. And the Net only made it worse.

You would literally have to be immortal to even _think_about_ knowing only _half_ of everything. And it would take two forevers + 1 day to actually _do_ anything with all that knowledge.

Some (allegedly basic) things that people sometimes don't know are a little more difficult to swallow. Don't know how/why the sun rises and sets, or seasons? Yarr. Dunno about boiling water? Also yarr, but more plausible in this disposable consumable society that is America.

Dunno about which teams are pwning which in This Season's Patriotic Man-Gaem? Compared to the entire population, you might be a minority, but still... *yawn* Don't know about some minor thing that happened in the eleventy-seventh episode of some cult TV show? *yawn again*

In this instance, the Portrait of the Devil contains some of you, Sor.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but it had to be said. The Portrait contains some of me, too. Some of all of us, I think.

[lordrefa.livejournal.com]

Blah, blah, blah...

The more I read your journal the more I understand why you and Magus get along so well. Despite your constant, some would say incessant, declarations that nothing you write in here is for consolation, coddling, pity, etc... It's all the comments you ever seem to get. Except from him. (And I hope me.) Good on the both of you.

This being said; If, by Origins, you haven't gotten SOME exposure, I'd love to sit down with you and a group (as I'm sure it'd be impossible to not get a group where you're involved at that convention) together to break your cherry on a few things.

All that said, before I get to the constructive advice portion of this comment: I'm with Magus on this. I'm shocked. You're such a tremendous geek that it's hard to imagine that you wouldn't have just wandered across some of the material at some point.

And, my advice comes in two flavors: What is probably "good" to watch, or the purity example. I'll start with the sci-fi standby first...

Sci-Fi Purity (Watch it in order)
Watch TOS first, then those movies, then TNG, and maybe those movies. The rest can really be skipped...

"Good"
Watch episodes of TNG from 4th-ish season and beyond and watch TOS movies, except for the first one. Three and Four kinda should be in order -- but the rest you can do however you'd like.

Your mileage, may, of course, vary.

[thomsolo.livejournal.com]

Complete tangent, but... your username is awesome.

On-topic: I would say, watch Two, Three, and Four in order, because they do form more or less a continuous narrative.

[lordrefa.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I do what I can.

And, meh -- Wrath of Khan really just introduces the Genesis device. It's explained well enough to know what's up in III. They do go in that order -- but I don't really think it's essential to understanding the narrative.

[thomsolo.livejournal.com]

Wrath of Khan introduces the Genesis Device... and Saavik, and David, so that we know why the hell we should care about them (especially David) in III... and yes, they flash back to the end of it at the start of III, so the audience knows WHY they're searching for Spock in the first place, but II fleshes the story out.

Yes, one could probably start with III and understand the gist of the story. However, starting with II brings even greater understanding.

[marcmagus]

Thank you.

Admittedly, it's partly because I tend to offer the consolation, etc. directly (over IM or in person, depending on where kdsorceress is when I see the post). I figure there's no need to make sure my offers of contentless support are on a stage for the entire world to see.

You advise watching movie III over I? Really? I may have to rewatch that; my memory is that it was pointless. It's been a long time, though. [Can we all agree that V was never filmed?]

Also, I agree with thomsolo: excellent username.

[lordrefa.livejournal.com]

It's personal taste as much as anything -- but most people seem to agree that "I" was pretty bad... I liked the actual plot, but they hadn't found their footing as a film medium yet.

And -- to be honest... This might ruin my whole case... But I love V. It's rediculous -- but it's fun. Trek has done hokey time travel since the beginning of time *rimshot* so why not just enjoy it for what it's worth?

[marcmagus]

Yes, but those same most people (in my experience) seem to agree that III was exceeded in awfulness only by V. *shrug*

Like I said, I may have to watch them again. When I watched V, I couldn't really get past the basic premise. "They're searching for what?!" I'm quite willing to believe it could be fun to watch now; I'm sure I have different standards for what I enjoy in movie-watching now than I did in my early teens.

[mrbelm.livejournal.com]

I'll be 50 this year. I was 7 or so when Trek first aired, and I know for a fact that the only episode I saw in original prime time was the last, "Turnabout Intruder." How do I know that? The insufferable ST geek in my high school class told me the name when I described the episode.

Almost no one you know could have seen the original run, so there's already a level of pretension to filter out. And, truth be told, no matter how deeply ingrained into the fabric of SF Trek has become, as a show it frequently sucked.

If someone is going to insist that you watch some TOS episodes, cherry-pick the best, those written by the SF authors: Harlan Ellison ("The City on the Edge of Forever"), Jerome Bixby ("Requiem For Methuselah"), Norman Spinrad ("The Doomsday Machine"), Robert Bloch ("What Are Little Girls Made Of?" "Catspaw"), Richard Matheson ("The Enemy Within"), David Gerrold ("The Trrouble With Tribbles"), and Theodore Sturgeon ("Amok Time," "Shore Leave").

And don't forget: The majority of the best science fiction television shows have been made in your lifetime.

[jannyblue.livejournal.com]

So what if you have holes in your fandom? EVERYONE does.

I've never read anything by Neil Gaiman, Stephen King, Piers Anthony, Mercedes Lackey or Anne McCaffery. Not even one book!

I've never seen any episode of Babylon 5 or (dare I mention this) Firefly. (I did see the Serenity movie, though)

I never played any G.U.R.P.s games or anything in the Legend of Zelda series.

...and this is just the stuff I thought of off the top of my head in 5 minutes. I'm sure there's a lot more worth mentioning, but let's not go there.


As far a your "Star Trek" lack of experience, if you're going to go for the Original Series (TOS) start with "The Trouble with Tribbles". Not because it's a great episode, but because it's hella funny.

[pharmakopp.livejournal.com]

I second "The Trouble with Tribbles."

I also second pretty much everything else everyone had to say, so I won't repeat it.

[cos]

You're probably better off never reading anything by Piers Anthony, except Macroscope. I tried reading one of his other books and got about 1/3 of the way through before I stopped and decided never to read any more. Might've been different if I'd been 13 and fascinated by the fact that there was sex, I guess.

[l33tminion]

and Chekov! and no Chekov's gun

Different Chekhov.

[kdsorceress.livejournal.com]

No, I think I was referring to exactly the Chekov I wanted to be.

I rarely pay enough attention to be able to identify whether or not a movie has a Chekhov's Gun. But I know the difference. TVTropes done did me good.

((PS, tvtropes will ruin your life, don't click on those links))

~Sor

[l33tminion]

PS, tvtropes will ruin your life

That warning, while accurate, is way, way too late.

[jere7my.livejournal.com]

Keep in mind that, when people say things like that, they are not just saying, "My God, you are young and ignorant!" They are also saying, "Can I really be so old that the things that were ubiquitous and unavoidable when I was young are now possible to miss entirely?" It's at least 50% a defensive response.

[yagathai.livejournal.com]

Some level? It was mostly all facetiousness. But if people want to make mean faces at me, that's OK too. They can get the hell off my lawn as well. ;)

[kdsorceress.livejournal.com]

OT, your icon is made of win and delicious.

~Sor

[artemisfowl2nd.livejournal.com]

For the record, and I'm sure you know at least some of this, but when I go on like that it's mostly in jest and I make sure to make some kind of note to put whatever it is you were missing out on onto some kind of pile to watch with you or loan to you or whatever at you at some point.

Granted, I forget about most of them when we actually wind up in the same state, but I will show you Jurassic Park and Hunchback of Notre Dame some day.

[kirby1024.livejournal.com]

Oh wow. I feel so terribly sorry for you, if you're surrounded by geek fans like that. My general answer to "I liked the movie, but I haven't seen any of the TV series" is usually "That's probably for the best...". Frankly, you might have dodged a bullet there.

I mean, Star Trek will always have a soft spot for me, because it was my parental quality time thang (the same with Buffy in a few ways), but let's be honest here - the writing is not top notch for the most part, there's some absolute dreck throughout every series, even a lot of the modern Trek is really problematic in a lot of ways.

And this will get me killed by any Trekkies currently here but... I think the franchise got a whole lot better once Roddenberry was out of the picture. Deep Space Nine is still my favourite, and I think the Dominion War was one of the greatest arcs in Trek history, but I understand that this is because it was the only arc to speak of in Trek history.

Me and Trek have... history. I was a die-hard fan (went to conventions even!), then left with Voyager, learned a lot about the backstage of Trek, and then had a much more critical relationship with it afterwards. There are a lot of Trek episodes that leave me cringing these days.

Sorry, I ranted.

In something closer related, it sucks that people attack you for your fandom-gaps. I think the attitude in this post is actually pretty commendable. I know that I've had a lot of people attack me for my fan-gaps, and worse, people attack me for simply not liking their fandom, like when I admit that I don't like Rocky Horror Picture Show. (although, be fair, I've probably yapped on at others, so I know I'm not innocent here...)

[miriampenguin.livejournal.com]

1) I'm waiting to see the new Star Trek movie until... one more week, I think it will be, until my fiance comes to town. Then we shall see it together!

2) I hope I haven't been one of those people you mentioned. If I have, I apologize.

3) Since I am Far Away and cannot sit down and watch episodes with you myself, the best I can do is provide links: CBS has the Original Series episodes online! (http://www.cbs.com/classics/star_trek/). Also worth watching on CBS's classics site is the original episodes of The Twilight Zone, and (in my opinion) Perry Mason. Perry Mason isn't necessarily a Geek sort of show, and I suppose I should warn that it's often slow-moving at the beginning (People arguing, blah, blah, blah, why, someone's murdered! Blah, blah, blah, Hello Perry Mason!) but once Perry Mason shows up it gets interesting. I have often watched it while eating breakfast, since it is not in-your-face like a lot of shows are in the morning.

I find it kind of funny that the sets of Trek that we both have seen are currently disjoint; What you have seen, I have not, and what I have seen, you have not.