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sorcyressOne of my partners has just asked me about marriage.
No, not ours --stop your squeeing or fainting or ramping up to say congrats or raised eyebrows or whatever. No, that partner is thinking about marrying a friend for various reasons (get the friend on my partner's superior healthcare is the main one, but also tax breaks) and wanted to know my thoughts1 on the idea.
I think of marriage as a tool.
See, here's the thing. If you've got a good relationship going, if you've spent years upon years entangled with someone, if you've got all the same friends and the same address2...that is meaningful, and significant, and I'm so glad you have found someone(s) you can build3 that sort of partnership with. I truly think that's awesome, because love everlasting takes quite a lot of work, and yes, I am the least romantic prat on the planet.
But to be perfectly honest, I don't give a rat's ass what you call it. You can call it a marriage, or a domestic partnership, or a soulmating, or a True Commitment, or a free-love-aura-bond, or a platypus for all I care. "Spouse" is a really good word to suggest that sort of relationship, but in the long run, I care much more that you have that relationship than what you call it.
And so a "marriage", as defined by the government5, doesn't really have anything to do with that partnership as much as it does with how the rest of the world (but especially the legal parts) react to that partnership. Children are pretty high on this list --being married makes coparenting have a lot less paperwork--, and work benefits, and being able to act for your spouse (executer of will, make decisions when they're in a coma, etc) and seeing your partner while they are in the hospital, and very importantly, having other people view your relationship as significant or legitimate (because while I, as mentioned, don't give a rat's ass what you call it, lots of people will assume a hierarchy where there is spouse/spouse at the top, and then "all other relationships" below it).
There are a lot of benefits to being married, but not one of them is "being better at love". Marrying someone won't make your relationship with them work better, or make communication easier, or make the things you don't like go away, or make all your compromises equal, or make you love them more, or make them love you more. Patience and time and dedication and communication and work and passion will make those things happen. Not marriage.
If you want to be married to someone because they really are your true love everlasting, by all means, I think you should do it. But I also think you should marry someone if you care about them and want to make sure they have proper healthcare. Or if you're indifferent to them but you want to raise a child together6. Or if they're trying to get their green card. Or if you're in Vegas and Elvis is right there come on!
So when my partner asked about marrying someone else, the only thing that affects is whether or not I can marry them7 at some point in the future. Given that I am poly, and will never8 be able to legally express my partnership statuses, this isn't really a big deal --as things stand, I will eventually find someone to coparent with, and marry them. Or I'll wind up destitute and get hitched for the healthcare. Or I'll move to Scandanavia and need their equivalent of a green card.
But when it comes to marriage, I don't think true love everlasting has very much to do with it. You might not think my relationship is valid without making someone my spouse, but I will know it is. Marriage may be more than just a piece of paper, but it's still a whole lot less than any of the myriad things we call love.
~Sor
MOOP!
1: Technically, my parter asked "how would you feel if I married foo?". I recently read an excellent (albeit friendslocked) post about needing a guide for the Thinkers/Feelers from the Meyer-Briggs personality test, to go with the many guides about Introverts/Extroverts. Ever since, it's been lurking on the edges of my mind, trying to suss out how I self-identify on that scale --I pride myself on my mind and its ability to think things over and through, but I am also as emotional as they come. I react very strongly when I feel sentiment, anger, fear, joy, depression, emotions in general.
2: Because sometimes I'm an observant daughter.
3: Among the Sorcyress's potentially unpopular opinions4 is the fact that love is not found, it's created. It doesn't matter how compatible you are with someone you just met, the bond you have is nothing compared to the pull between two people who have actively worked to create a life that has room for each other in it. And I say this as someone who is supersusceptible to NewToyEnergy --I adore that rush of newness when you find someone lovely, but man, if it came right down to it, that feeling is nothing compared to the satisfaction of solving a problem with someone who I am committed to keeping in my life.
4: And I really should talk about these more sometime, so that people can poke holes in my thoughts, or I can poke holes in yours.
5: I hear there's also "marriage" as defined by the church, but as I am not a part of any churches, I don't feel able to make a statement on that.
6: I reeeeeeally think that marriage-just-for-coparenting should be a widely accepted thing. I would love to see a widely-accepted contract that boils down to "we will be together for x years (x being 18 plus insemination time, plus other children) and then if we want to make other commitments outside that, we will, but this contract is just for the kids"
7: I mean, plus or minus divorce, but I suspect I'm generally sorta anti-divorce in the same ways that I am anti-abortion --I am one hundred percent okay with them happening, and feel there shouldn't be any stigma attached, but boy, I would love to live in a world where no one needed to get a divorce (because they took enough time and built enough of a commitment beforehand to know that this is a long-term thing, or because they built contracts with a natural end to them instead of this "til death do we part" nonsense, or because TWOO WUV EVERLASTING or whatever) just like I would love to live in a world where no one got pregnant without intent.
8: Okay, fine, will "probably never".
No, not ours --stop your squeeing or fainting or ramping up to say congrats or raised eyebrows or whatever. No, that partner is thinking about marrying a friend for various reasons (get the friend on my partner's superior healthcare is the main one, but also tax breaks) and wanted to know my thoughts1 on the idea.
I think of marriage as a tool.
See, here's the thing. If you've got a good relationship going, if you've spent years upon years entangled with someone, if you've got all the same friends and the same address2...that is meaningful, and significant, and I'm so glad you have found someone(s) you can build3 that sort of partnership with. I truly think that's awesome, because love everlasting takes quite a lot of work, and yes, I am the least romantic prat on the planet.
But to be perfectly honest, I don't give a rat's ass what you call it. You can call it a marriage, or a domestic partnership, or a soulmating, or a True Commitment, or a free-love-aura-bond, or a platypus for all I care. "Spouse" is a really good word to suggest that sort of relationship, but in the long run, I care much more that you have that relationship than what you call it.
And so a "marriage", as defined by the government5, doesn't really have anything to do with that partnership as much as it does with how the rest of the world (but especially the legal parts) react to that partnership. Children are pretty high on this list --being married makes coparenting have a lot less paperwork--, and work benefits, and being able to act for your spouse (executer of will, make decisions when they're in a coma, etc) and seeing your partner while they are in the hospital, and very importantly, having other people view your relationship as significant or legitimate (because while I, as mentioned, don't give a rat's ass what you call it, lots of people will assume a hierarchy where there is spouse/spouse at the top, and then "all other relationships" below it).
There are a lot of benefits to being married, but not one of them is "being better at love". Marrying someone won't make your relationship with them work better, or make communication easier, or make the things you don't like go away, or make all your compromises equal, or make you love them more, or make them love you more. Patience and time and dedication and communication and work and passion will make those things happen. Not marriage.
If you want to be married to someone because they really are your true love everlasting, by all means, I think you should do it. But I also think you should marry someone if you care about them and want to make sure they have proper healthcare. Or if you're indifferent to them but you want to raise a child together6. Or if they're trying to get their green card. Or if you're in Vegas and Elvis is right there come on!
So when my partner asked about marrying someone else, the only thing that affects is whether or not I can marry them7 at some point in the future. Given that I am poly, and will never8 be able to legally express my partnership statuses, this isn't really a big deal --as things stand, I will eventually find someone to coparent with, and marry them. Or I'll wind up destitute and get hitched for the healthcare. Or I'll move to Scandanavia and need their equivalent of a green card.
But when it comes to marriage, I don't think true love everlasting has very much to do with it. You might not think my relationship is valid without making someone my spouse, but I will know it is. Marriage may be more than just a piece of paper, but it's still a whole lot less than any of the myriad things we call love.
~Sor
MOOP!
1: Technically, my parter asked "how would you feel if I married foo?". I recently read an excellent (albeit friendslocked) post about needing a guide for the Thinkers/Feelers from the Meyer-Briggs personality test, to go with the many guides about Introverts/Extroverts. Ever since, it's been lurking on the edges of my mind, trying to suss out how I self-identify on that scale --I pride myself on my mind and its ability to think things over and through, but I am also as emotional as they come. I react very strongly when I feel sentiment, anger, fear, joy, depression, emotions in general.
2: Because sometimes I'm an observant daughter.
3: Among the Sorcyress's potentially unpopular opinions4 is the fact that love is not found, it's created. It doesn't matter how compatible you are with someone you just met, the bond you have is nothing compared to the pull between two people who have actively worked to create a life that has room for each other in it. And I say this as someone who is supersusceptible to NewToyEnergy --I adore that rush of newness when you find someone lovely, but man, if it came right down to it, that feeling is nothing compared to the satisfaction of solving a problem with someone who I am committed to keeping in my life.
4: And I really should talk about these more sometime, so that people can poke holes in my thoughts, or I can poke holes in yours.
5: I hear there's also "marriage" as defined by the church, but as I am not a part of any churches, I don't feel able to make a statement on that.
6: I reeeeeeally think that marriage-just-for-coparenting should be a widely accepted thing. I would love to see a widely-accepted contract that boils down to "we will be together for x years (x being 18 plus insemination time, plus other children) and then if we want to make other commitments outside that, we will, but this contract is just for the kids"
7: I mean, plus or minus divorce, but I suspect I'm generally sorta anti-divorce in the same ways that I am anti-abortion --I am one hundred percent okay with them happening, and feel there shouldn't be any stigma attached, but boy, I would love to live in a world where no one needed to get a divorce (because they took enough time and built enough of a commitment beforehand to know that this is a long-term thing, or because they built contracts with a natural end to them instead of this "til death do we part" nonsense, or because TWOO WUV EVERLASTING or whatever) just like I would love to live in a world where no one got pregnant without intent.
8: Okay, fine, will "probably never".
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no subject
on 2013-02-28 02:22 am (UTC)In Which Harena Rambles for a bit about Mawwige
on 2013-02-28 06:15 pm (UTC)First of all, I totally agree with your assessment on what it is and isn't. It can be a Very Useful Tool if used properly and a horrible weapon if abused. As I well know. I was raised to believe (like probably the majority of society today) that if someone really loves you (and isn't just Pretending and such), then they'll marry you. Which led Insecure Me to believe if I had someone marry me that I'd be set for life. This person would only marry me if they really loved me and would take care of me no Matter What. And I would have No Worries because they'd be my Safety Net.
Of course, it turned out to be nothing of the sort. I got married twice for the stupidest reasons ever. Because I was Afraid. I was convinced that these men were going to do right by me. And of course, they did not. They had their own agenda and my personal well-being pretty much had little to do with it if I wasn't in full agreement with said agenda. Which, of course, broke me quite a bit more than I was when I went into both marriages.
So coming out of that, I have a very strong sense of marriage avoidance. Which regularly does mortal combat with my inner romantic. I still want the love my life to come along and sweep me off my feet, propose to me and live Happily Ever After as their spouse. Because that would Prove It. OSLT.
And of course, as both my marriages proved, your point about it not being able to fix a blankity-blank thing if both parties aren't willing to work their butts off for Love. Which brings me around to W&I.
I believe that as Hypertwins, we have that To Blave thingy going on 'cause we both work on it every single day. (Well, W probly works on it more than me 'cause she's considerably less broken, though more differently wired) And in our hearts we do not need Marriage to Prove It. It's there all by itself. But I do worry about having proper healthcare, being able to visit W when she's in the hospital and vice versa. We've already raised children together even though they are mostly mine, W has been more of a parent to them (and ironically male role model) than their BF1. But I would want to be able to be sure that if I died first that I could be sure that W would be taken care in my will. I don't think my family would undercut her in my absence, but I want to be sure. Soyeah. Thinking about the marriage thing. I do worry that W will feel like it's a "selling out" thing. And a bit of me thinks it too. But I can more easily override that with the Need to Survive Thing. And so on.
I think there was more but this has gotten incoherent enough already. If more comes to mind, I'll let you know ;)
P.S. And there's always the fun we'd have if we did get married and then W got her body fixed. Tha'd totally show the State of NC :D
1: Biological Father
no subject
on 2013-02-28 07:03 pm (UTC)I generally agree. However...
on 2013-03-04 01:10 pm (UTC)But yes, it would be lovely if all those legal changes could be had à la carte as well.
You've given me a bunch of stuff to think about
on 2013-02-28 02:04 am (UTC)I don't think I can disagree with any of your basic thoughts on this, and the way you've put those thoughts together is pretty intriguing stuff. Footnote #7 is full of awesomesauce, and the idea of "contract lasting enough time to create healthy, productive kids" is right up there with the Magna Carta in the "This Is A Good Idea" set of objects.
But the one that's really rolling around in my brain is Footnote #3. Being one of those odd people that actually goes to church and values my time spent in building my faith, there's a lot of good stuff in there for me to consider. I'd be interested to see you expand those thoughts when you get around to doing so.
no subject
on 2013-02-28 03:25 am (UTC)no subject
on 2013-02-28 03:41 am (UTC)no subject
on 2013-02-28 08:15 pm (UTC)~Sor
no subject
on 2013-02-28 09:04 pm (UTC)Maybe you don't think of me that way, but sometimes I think it would be fun to get dialectic with you.
no subject
on 2013-03-01 06:32 am (UTC)no subject
on 2013-02-28 03:41 am (UTC)One of the many reasons I love you!
And I am so proud.
Love
your
Mom
no subject
on 2013-02-28 06:35 am (UTC)Most, if not all, of the things in your benefits of marriage list can be achieved through other methods. The act of getting married is (again, sadly) just the simplest and easiest way to do all of that.
3: I'm not sure that'd be an especially unpopular opinion outside twoo wuv unrealistic romance stories.
6: That's called being married for 18 years and then getting a divorce. I have no doubt that it's not at all uncommon. (Woo triple-negative!)
7: This: //because they took enough time and built enough of a commitment beforehand to know that this is a long-term thing// is awful judgey-judgey. Sometimes people just grow apart, or keep secrets, or discover things about themselves that make the relationship impossible to continue, all time and effort be damned.
no subject
on 2013-02-28 12:30 pm (UTC)Money you use to buy health insurance for a spouse is money you don't have to pay taxes on.
Also, places tend to charge more for D.P. health insurance on top of that extra cost... assuming they even allow it.
For the record, I like your definition of marriage. It makes sense. And I'm not just saying that because I agree with you. (okay, well maybe a little)
no subject
on 2013-02-28 03:20 pm (UTC)Um. Money used to buy insurance for an unmarried partner is money you have to pay taxes on? Are you sure? I haven't scrutenized my paycheck, but I doubt I'm paying taxes on the family plan I'm on with Lisa (as my Domestic Partner).
Obviously, different states are different in terms of being able to get -some- of the benefits of marriage.
You can also marry for tax purposes -- although it's sticky, since unless one partner is making All the Moneys and is expected to do this in the future, it's not unlikely that marraige will be a net increase in taxes, not a net decrease. I should start keeping a running calculation on how much I'd save on taxes were I and
no subject
on 2013-03-01 03:29 am (UTC)It's mostly academic as far as I'm concerned, since at this point I don't expect to ever get married.
I'm 33, don't have much interest in breeding, and I tend to end up in the role of "that chick you date while you wait for your soulmate to show up and marry you" so I don't think I'm going to get a chance to worry about weddings and such.
no subject
on 2013-02-28 12:55 pm (UTC)My aunt married a guy because he needed health insurance and she liked him. She stayed with him long after the abuse started because she felt bad for him, and that his health insurance would go away if she divorced him.
If your friend gets married for health care, I would suggest that both parties discuss very methodically what happens when things go sour. Plan for when and that way you're decided on what to do if when comes around.
I put up with several months (only months!) of emotional abuse because my friend and I didn't think we could make rent if I kicked my boyfriend out. It was a very wrong decision, but I was 25 and didn't know better because it hadn't happened to me or as far as I knew, anyone else I knew.
Make sure they have the very hard conversation. Then go nuts. Health care is so stupid here.
no subject
on 2013-02-28 01:21 pm (UTC)(*) Currently.
no subject
on 2013-02-28 05:10 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2013-02-28 10:55 pm (UTC)Most people are hard wired to love. If you don't love your spouse someday one of you will fall in love with someone else. This is a sure fire recipe for divorce. If you KNOW you're going to divorce you are going to need a very detailed prenup.
Also, sharing a life is SUPER hard even when you ARE in love. Many a day I've not killed the hubby only because I DO love him. We wouldn't have lated two years without love. Love is the lube that prevents the friction of two lives rubbing together from setting your house on fire.
Somehow that lacked poetry...
no subject
on 2013-03-01 02:26 am (UTC)no subject
on 2013-03-01 04:12 pm (UTC)Nothing prepares you for the weight of 50+ years of living a shared life together. You just have to live it and learn as you go. It's a hard road, and maybe some people can make it without romantic love, but I personally could not.
Either way, it's something that should be thought about before you enter into a marriage. Also kids, no kids how many kids? And how family money is spent, saved, etc.
no subject
on 2013-03-04 12:01 am (UTC)1. Explain to me what you mean by footnote 2.
2. There is a movie called Friends With Kids you might be interested in getting outraged by. It starts in that premise; two very best friends, unattractive to each other, feel their biological clocks go ticking and decide to have a kid together. They live in the same apartment building and make it work despite their friends, who range from offended to disbelieving. It's got some pretty funny moments, but then picks off into your regularly scheduled Hollywood territory, as you might imagine, and they get feelingsy and then realize omg you CAN'T parent unless you're in love with your spouse because that's how it's SUPPOSED TO BE!
no subject
on 2013-03-04 12:43 am (UTC)2) I am indeed OUTRAGEDDDD! RARRR!
~Sor