In which Sor accepts that she is turning into a feminist, isn't she?

[sorcyress]

WARNING: This post doesn't really get so far as talking about rape, per se, but it does talk about regular, routine, sexual assault. Trigger warning in effect.

Unlike most of the people on my friends list, I am really not that long out of high school at all. I graduated a little more than two years ago, and entered just over six years ago. This journal was started in December of my freshman year --it makes a really good chronicle of my life sometimes.

And sometimes, I laugh at naive younger!Sor, and sometimes we argue, and sometimes she weeps for me, as I am now. And sometimes, I weep for her, as she was then

On a similar note, why would any girl want to degrade herself by LETTING boys smack her on the rear end, or pinch or grab her butt? I see it in school way to often, guys do that to the girls and the girls just LAUGH! Why the hell don't they care?? That guy just grabbed one of your "private parts," a part of the body that you've known since childhood is even more private and personal then the rest of your body, and you just sit there and giggle. You IDIOTS! Trust me, and guy who gets his hand within a foot of my rear end will suddenly find that hand shoved down that throat. It still being attached to his arm is optional.
18/May/2004. Please don't mind the fact that it has taken me a very long time to apparently learn the difference between to and too.

Because it's really really hard to fight against everyone you're close to. Because you don't want to be called a prude, uptight¹. Because if you deck the guy, you've forced your friends to see you as "humourless" and perhaps a freak.

After all. He was only doing it in good fun.

I've never much had to worry about seriously resisting the peer pressure of the average high school crowd, because I was so far flung out of it *anyways*. I ignored and avoided nearly everyone who wasn't either part of the Table --largely a collection of those of us who were two (or more!) grades ahead in math and liked playing magic-- or the Theatre. The boys I grew up around, certainly in those first two or three years of high school, were sweet and dorky and painfully inept at girls. More importantly, they were gentlemen, and I think the idea of smacking one of their friends on the ass was just as taboo to them as it was to me.

But reading blogs, and posts, I stumble across the following --

A growing number of teenage girls view sexual harassment and even assault as “normal,” says a top Toronto school board official.
Gerry Connelly described the “new normal” phenomenon during her keynote address at the annual Safe Schools Conference in Toronto today.
“A young girl will see somebody being pushed against a locker and fondled inappropriately, or they are being touched inappropriately and they say: ‘Well that’s just the way it is,’” said Ms. Connelly, director of education at the Toronto District School Board.²

And that's what it was to me --normal. Sickening, and dirty, and slutty, and how dare those girls degrade themselves like that, but ultimately, a fairly normal sight to see. 14!Sor never once considered that maybe it wasn't the girls degrading themselves, so much as submitting to being degraded³. Out of fear of being ostracized, out of an inability to fight back, out of just not caring, because they know it's not going to stop, whatever.

And maybe I was wrong, and it wasn't sexual harassment at all. Maybe most of it was couples, roughhousing, playing, being just a little bit of exhibitionists just to show off they had each other. Maybe it was friends goofing around. Maybe not one of those girls I ever saw ever felt the slightest bit uncomfortable with the situation --it was just another touch, like a hug.

But I honestly kind of doubt it.

~Sor
MOOP!

1: Perhaps nearly as bad an insult as slut, some days.
2: From PunkAssBlog, the article "The Evolution of a Feminist"
3: I...can't quite get this wording right. I want to say that the girls themselves were not doing anything wrong, however, they also weren't trying to fight back, and were instead accepting the situation -which is not inherently wrong, it's hard to fight against someone stronger than you, especially if you don't want to be told to just lighten up- but also did not necessarily help their situation. Insert debate here as to how much the victim is responsible for changing their situation. Yes, the abusers are fully at fault, but if no one ever stands up and tells them that it's wrong --and that did not necessarily need to be the girls-- they will continue their abuse. Orsomethinglikethat?

WARNING, because my disclaimers go both ways, for the people who read their friends lists from the bottom on up!
This post talks about regular, routine sexual assault at a high school level. Trigger warnings, and all that.

Comments

[tirerim.livejournal.com]

I wonder if this was really as different from my high school as I seem to remember, or if I was simply oblivious. (We did have a pretty strong anti-PDA policy, which might have cut down on physical harassment, too.) I'm a big fan of letting people decide what to do with their own bodies, which extends to deciding what they will allow others to do to said bodies, but at the same time I think its a problem that our culture encourages this sort of thing. And I really think the culture is the biggest culprit, on both sides—while it's up to individuals to change the culture, they also can't really be faulted for not realizing that it needs changing, because how would they know?

[abecedarianizer.livejournal.com]

You should check out <a href="http://www.racialicious.com/2008/12/21/original-essay-the-not-rape-epidemic/>The Not-Rape Epidemic</a>. It definitely goes a step beyond the ass smacking/grabbing you mention, but may offers an interesting perspective on why no one really says or does anything about it.

[abecedarianizer.livejournal.com]

Link fail.

The Not-Rape Epidemic (http://www.racialicious.com/2008/12/21/original-essay-the-not-rape-epidemic)

[kdsorceress.livejournal.com]

That reminds me of some of the stuff Harriet writes over at Fugitivus. I can't find the post right now, but she did a post discussing all of the things that society considers not actually rape (here maybe?) that most definitely fucking *are*

She's a good writer. Needless to say, triggery.

~Sor

(Response to your link will appear in a minute, when I've read more than the first paragraph)

[abecedarianizer.livejournal.com]

Oh my. HOURS of procrastination material!

I'm trying to digest and form an intelligible response, but this whole digesting things is taking a while. I cant' quite seem to warp my mind around it all.

[kdsorceress.livejournal.com]

Man, and *yes*. I have been "wasting" a lot of time over there lately, hopping about. Her newest big thing is just wonderful --Stuff What Boys Can Do and brings to mind the Truly Epic Post About Rape from last spring.

(The latter of which is actually pretty short, and worth reading. It's the subsequent twenty-six pages of comments that take it out of you.)

Also, yeah. Take your time, breathe occasionally, and remember to go look at Cute Overload¹ every time it all gets to be too much.

~Sor

1: Because when women get hysterical, you have to calm them with baby animals. Stupid hysterical women. In seriousness, it was just the first site that popped into my mind as being a palate cleanser for sucky things.

[kdsorceress.livejournal.com]

Gah. Well written, nothing I haven't especially heard before, but still a little bit reeling. The world kinda epic-level sucks sometimes.

I do wince a little bit at the wide-spread condemnation of older men dating younger women, BUT, I also veeeeery much recognize the differences between my general thing for guys a decade older than me, and this sort of predation. It ties at least partially in with age of consent and the half plus seven rule and such, too. Butyeah. Not all may-december romances are inherently bad.

I'm willing to say almost all of them with high (or fucking middle!) schoolers might be though. Aig.

((And a tiny little part of me wonders if this isn't part of the problem. If a young teenage boy looks around, and all the girls he would be able to date are off dating older men, he learns that that's what you do when you ARE an older man, you find a younger girl to fuck. But that's a terribly cynical thought, and the world can't be that terrible, of course.))

~Sor

[joshuazelinsky.livejournal.com]

That essay is interesting but a lot of the stuff in that essay would still be classified as either sexual assault or just assault. These are crimes. People can be held civilly and criminally liable for them. So the main issue here would seem to need to be more emphasis on letting people understand that a) such behavior isn't acceptable and b) that they can press charges.

However, with some of the other behavior discussed it really isn't always clear where precisely to draw the line. The age of consent related issues for example vary a lot by country and culture. There's no sane culture that allows 11 year old to be having sex with anyone. And there seem in those cases like a lot of people should have been prosecuted (older boyfriends obviously, in some of the cases mentioned, the parents should have been prosecuted for negligence or risk of injury to a minor, etc.)

The vast majority of this behavior, even when it isn't legally actionable, is clearly very much not ok and makes one want to castrate a large portion of the male population (note not just the het male pop since I've seen some pretty awful behavior by gay and bi men also).

Note also that unwanted behavior also occurs in the other direction with females directed at males. In much of the United States it is essentially impossible for a male to claim he was raped by a female or even sexually assaulted by a female because the assumption is so strong that that just doesn't happen.

Responding more directly to sorcy's original post, I'm a bit appalled that there were schools where that sort of behavior was a common occurrence. There's certainly a fraction of the population (of both genders) who are ok with that sort of touching. But it seems pretty small. Small enough that there's no reasonable way this would be a common consenting occurrence in a school setting.

[miriampenguin.livejournal.com]

Okay, so.

...

You know, I could probably write an essay just about touch. Heck, there's a book written about it - The Magic Touch (http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Touch-Jewish-Approach-Relationships/dp/1568711859) - it's a Jewish book, but it's relevant to the topic at hand(heh).

Essentially... touch is a very powerful thing. A hug can give the warm fuzzies, a simple brush of the fingertips can start sparks flying, and a non-consensual touch can make someone feel like their entire self is somehow lesser than others'. Touch is a powerful tool, and you can use it for good, but there is also potential for the opposite.

Touching can create a powerful bond between two people. How? Touching feels good. Sometimes really good. Naturally, you tend to like the person who makes you feel good, and it creates a feedback loop. Within a loving, committed relationship (e.g. marriage), this strengthens the relationship, and is only one of the many ways the two people show they love each other.

However, when touch comes first in a relationship, it tends to override other considerations, ranging from "Is this person really treating me how I want to be treated?" to "Does this person have the same values I do?", and sometimes, people can become quite emotionally invested in a person before they realize that the person isn't really right for them. Granted, this can happen even when touch isn't involved (for example, unrequited crushes), but touch makes things even messier if things go wrong.

On the other hand, when someone becomes inured to touch, it robs them of a very powerful gift once they're in a loving, committed relationship. The small little touches, like a brush of the fingertips or holding hands can sometimes become commonplace enough to be taken for granted, and thus lose their effect. Often times more intense forms of touch are substituted. The trouble is, the more intense forms of touch are just as susceptible losing their potency, too.^* When you mix in PDA and high school (with all its hormones and self-esteem issues), an element of peer pressure is added, and, well...
I'm reminded of a sing-song-y chant that was popular for about a year while a certain couple was going out:
"Who needs to put out? _Female_ needs to put out!", with the girl's first name instead of _Female_. I'm pretty sure everyone knew it was wrong to sing it, yet most people sung it anyway because "it was just a joke". I'm ashamed to admit that I was largely silent about it, even once or twice joined in, despite not believing the premise. Once, shortly before I graduated, she called me on it. I try to do better now.

So touching can lead to more touching, and to overriding one's better judgment. Yet when even celibacy is thought of ambivalently in our society, to completely refrain from touching (non-family-)members of the opposite sex until marriage is virtually unheard of. There are people who do it, and not just people who grew up with it. However, it's a decision not be taken lightly. It involves a lot of self-control, which seems to be in short supply these days, and it's likely to get you ostracized. Yet it's worth it.

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<sup*</sup>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Okay, so.

...

You know, I could probably write an essay just about touch. Heck, there's a book written about it - <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Touch-Jewish-Approach-Relationships/dp/1568711859">The Magic Touch</a> - it's a Jewish book, but it's relevant to the topic at hand<small>(heh)</small>.

Essentially... touch is a very powerful thing. A hug can give the warm fuzzies, a simple brush of the fingertips can start sparks flying, and a non-consensual touch can make someone feel like their entire self is somehow lesser than others'. Touch is a powerful tool, and you can use it for good, but there is also potential for the opposite.

Touching can create a powerful bond between two people. How? Touching feels good. Sometimes really good. Naturally, you tend to like the person who makes you feel good, and it creates a feedback loop. Within a loving, committed relationship (e.g. marriage), this strengthens the relationship, and is only one of the many ways the two people show they love each other.

However, when touch comes first in a relationship, it tends to override other considerations, ranging from "Is this person really treating me how I want to be treated?" to "Does this person have the same values I do?", and sometimes, people can become quite emotionally invested in a person before they realize that the person isn't really right for them. Granted, this can happen even when touch isn't involved (for example, unrequited crushes), but touch makes things even messier if things go wrong.

On the other hand, when someone becomes inured to touch, it robs them of a very powerful gift once they're in a loving, committed relationship. The small little touches, like a brush of the fingertips or holding hands can sometimes become commonplace enough to be taken for granted, and thus lose their effect. Often times more intense forms of touch are substituted. The trouble is, the more intense forms of touch are just as susceptible losing their potency, too.^* When you mix in PDA and high school (with all its hormones and self-esteem issues), an element of peer pressure is added, and, well...
I'm reminded of a sing-song-y chant that was popular for about a year while a certain couple was going out:
"Who needs to put out? _Female_ needs to put out!", with the girl's first name instead of _Female_. I'm pretty sure everyone knew it was wrong to sing it, yet most people sung it anyway because "it was just a joke". I'm ashamed to admit that I was largely silent about it, even once or twice joined in, despite not believing the premise. Once, shortly before I graduated, she called me on it. I try to do better now.

So touching can lead to more touching, and to overriding one's better judgment. Yet when even celibacy is thought of ambivalently in our society, to completely refrain from touching (non-family-)members of the opposite sex until marriage is virtually unheard of. There are people who do it, and not just people who grew up with it. However, it's a decision not be taken lightly. It involves a lot of self-control, which seems to be in short supply these days, and it's likely to get you ostracized. Yet it's worth it.



<sup*</sup><small>Unfortunately, being inured to touch can happen in marriages, too. There are many a TV show where married couples complain that they've lost their spark. In real life, when couples go to therapy for this, sometimes the therapist gives them the advice of not touching each other for two weeks. This allows time for desire to renew itself - the couple being in such close quarters, yet not being able to touch each other creates a powerful effect, and renews the specialness of touch. Not only that, but for the time that the couple doesn't touch. they are forced to show their love for each other in other ways, which strengthens the marriage. This is approximately how Observant Jewish couples operate - two weeks on, two weeks off, though there are a lot more details to it.

[miriampenguin.livejournal.com]

... blar, knew I should have previewed it. Silly brackets.

a couple of observations

[woozle.livejournal.com]

Feminists are not evil or tacky. They are just demonized by Republicans, who like to demonize everyone who is sufficiently different from them breaks the rules they think everyone but them should follow. Feminists are just people who believe special privileges for males should be removed from our laws and culture, and the case for doing so seems pretty damn clear by now (while the case against is full of empty).

Nobody should believe that they have to accept that a personal violation is okay, even if they decide not to fight back at the time... even if all you do is write in your blog "Today [name] did [description] to me, and it was not okay with me."

Yes, I know, not all high school kids have blogs. They should, or at least should have the option. It should be something that is Firmly Encouraged By Authority, rather than Frowned Upon as an Inducement to Child Abductors and/or Pornographers.

Also, everyone, of any age, should be encouraged to keep a public record of the things they approve of and disapprove of. (I do. (http://www.issuepedia.org/User:Woozle/positions))

(Here endeth the digression.)

[leiacat.livejournal.com]

I would just like to mention how much I love you for putting disclaimers on both ends of your post: lots. (Also, you say much good stuff. But, lots of my friends write lots of good stuff, whereas the extra-thoughtfulness in marking the content for bottom-readers is far more rare. I appreciate it.)

[kdsorceress.livejournal.com]

Heh, you're welcome. It's mostly because, whenever I remember, I go back and read from the bottom of the friends list on up. I like things to be in chronological order!

~Sor

[marmota.livejournal.com]

>1: Perhaps nearly as bad an insult as slut, some days.

Not really; when someone calls someone else 'uptight', they're generally trying to get them to do something against their better judgement. In contrast, when someone calls someone else 'slut', they're generally trying to get them to stop doing something against their better judgement. So, if I'm getting called 'uptight' I know I'm doing something right, whereas if I get called 'slut' I'd know I was doing something wrong.

[l33tminion]

That really bothers me. I agree that "uptight" is more likely to be directly manipulative, but I don't think it makes sense to presume that those that hurl insults are at all concerned with the "better judgment" of those who they're trying to hurt, or to presume that such insults are so honest.

[l33tminion]

Yes, the abusers are fully at fault, but if no one ever stands up and tells them that it's wrong --and that did not necessarily need to be the girls-- they will continue their abuse. Orsomethinglikethat?

The issue is no less tricky as a male bystander, though. When I see something questionable like that, I'm not sure whether speaking out will be seen as patronizing, or whether I'm misinterpreting the situation entirely.

[perelman42.livejournal.com]

I should really know better than to read things that have trigger warnings on them.

But, yeah. I had a lot of things which had the effect of being abusive done to me in school. Not directly sexual, though I did grow up in a part of the country where "gay" was an insult, leading to it taking a long time for me to accept that I'm *not* gay.. bleah.

I phrase it that way intentionally. I'm not sure if I was actually being abused, or if things that were normal roughhousing and perhaps sub-optimal conduct just WERE abusive to me. I understand now why no one would do anything about it - most of the bullying WAS normal. Kids just call each other retards and faggots and retarded faggots and punch each other. That's just how it is, and my inability to not react in the face of that was, to some degree, my failing, my responsibility, and my fault.

And I'm not sure how that relates to this topic. But it does tend to bias me against "victims", and I'm not sure how much of that is or isn't reasonable. I just know that the reality is a lot more complicated than "it's not the victim's fault", and that in the real world, it always partially is.

[kdsorceress.livejournal.com]

I just know that the reality is a lot more complicated than "it's not the victim's fault", and that in the real world, it always partially is.

Man, I kinda hear you. But this is a really *really* tricky line to deal with, because what it boils down to is, regardless of what actions the victim could or could not have taken, they still weren't the ones who were doing the abuse in the first place

Yes, someone could've gotten out of a relationship, or an abusive home, or they could've fought back, or they could've told someone, or they could've done any one of a number of things, and not doing them is their fault. But even more importantly, they shouldn't have HAD to be worrying about these options, because the abuse shouldn't have been happening.

Yeah. Strong feelings, woo.

~Sor