sorcyress | (no subject)

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Looking for input:

1) Is there a good non-gendered, or gender-inclusive word that could provide about the same connotations as "gentleman"?

(A friend asked this on Flife, and it occurs to me that this would be a useful word for my life. Neither he nor I thinks "gentleperson" satisfies.)

2) So, a boy-shaped friend of mine asked recently if I had any suggestions for how to indicate "I am not a bad guy" when walking late at night near (specifically, but it could certainly be generalized) single¹ women. His biggest concern was what happens when he is walking at about the same pace as a woman, and behind her, such as to seem like he is following her (rather than both going in the same direction).

(Obviously walking the opposite direction from someone is easy to indicate "safe" --make eye contact, smile, maybe say "good evening" and keep walking.)

Oh, damn. Only now it occurs to me that I could've suggested he switch sides of the street, assuming the area is safe to do so. I mean...there's still the following problem, but especially if the woman is aware of you switching sides, there's an indication of giving space.

More suggestions?

~Sor
MOOP!

1: As in, "only one" not "unpartnered"

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#1 - do you mean in the sense of someone who is courteous, or well-mannered, or genteel? Or are top hats and tails involved?

#2 - a few options would either be: if walking close behind, speed up and pass, giving a "good evening, excuse me" when drawing near to telegraph proximity; or carry on a cell phone conversation, read a book while walking, or something similar that indicates his attention is elsewhere, i.e., not on her in any way that could be construed as anxiety-inducing.

1. No.

2. Stop in a store, stop and fidget with your phone. Orget on your phone so it's clear your interest is in something other than her. Or walk faster so that you wind up in front of her. "Hey really, I'm not creepy" usually seems like "protest too much" and crossing the street can seem too strategic.

2) I remember a good discussion about this somewhere, but I really don't remember where. :( Ideas I remember:

a) Crossing the street may help, but alone if done wrong can look like you're trying to follow them without being noticed. Same with slowing down to give space.

b) Speed up to pass the person (ideally crossing the street or otherwise giving space so it doesn't feel like you're speeding up to catch them). Now they don't have to worry about the man behind them.

c) From a "getting off the bus at the same stop" situation there was something great about telling the person what your planned route was and offering to go ahead of them or something like that. Sadly I don't remember the details, but it involved giving assurance that if you turned up the same side-street it was a coincidence.

Wish I'd bookmarked the discussion, and done so in a way I could find it again.

i don't know the answer to #1, but if you ever find an answer, could you let me know?

1. Comrades!

2. I'd probably start texting, talking on my cellphone, or humming? I don't know if it'd work but it might give less of an impression of sneaking.

1. Mensch. Literally translated from yiddish it means "a person", the actual usage is "a fine, upstanding sort of person". Historically the usage been to mean "a male fine upstanding sort of person", but there's nothing whatsoever in the word itself that implies it.

2. To me what feels like a "safe" sequence is "do not solicit eye contact, but if it's made, smile, break eye-contact without lingering, and continue to mind your own business". "Engage in conversation and report your intended route" would be thought of as seriously strange/creepy.

Not walking at quite the same pace would obviously be a more straightforward option.

I wish I had not taken that word with a negative connotation the first time I heard it.

It's just a useful word.

how to indicate "I am not a bad guy" when walking late at night near (specifically, but it could certainly be generalized) single1 women

Honestly, my immediate reaction was "if there was a secret non-creepy signal, all the creepy guys would know it." I don't think there is anything.

if there was a secret non-creepy signal, all the creepy guys would know it.

Well, this assumes they would, in fact, be willing to give off the non-creepy signal. It's just as likely that they wouldn't genuinely care about being nice to other people, all the while thinking of themselves as a "nice guy" who didn't need to seem less creepy. They are also more likely to see politeness as a bunch of stuffy rules that don't apply to them, rather than a general principal of trying to be a part of the world and to grease the wheels of civilization. This is unfortunately part of why there are a lot of creepy geeks.

My personal vote is that the very act of trying to seem less dangerous perpetuates the notion that the world is a dangerous place, discouraging people from going out alone or at night, and in turn actually making the world more dangerous. I've never gotten the impression that women wanted people to act all weird around them, like they were delicate flowers who needed protecting.

Furthermore, acting weirdly to avoid looking weird makes it harder to recognize subtle cues that someone might genuinely be a threat -- it's better if everyone has some experience with what the world looks like when everyone is peacefully doing their own thing and nothing bad is happening. So I think the very best thing you can do is mind your own business and try not to second-guess what is best for other people.

The ordinary courtesies you would extend to all pedestrians should do -- don't crowd people or do sudden and unexpected things, apologize if you bump into them, don't deliberately follow someone around because you think they're cute. You do, in fact, have to extend those courtesies, but you should do so at all times, and not just when you are worried what other people might think of you. You do that because that's how civilization keeps going.

That said, you have to do those things with the knowledge that some people will be made uncomfortable by your presence near them, and kind of suck it up and deal on that count. Lots of things make lots of people uncomfortable.

Reasonable people might disagree with me on some of this. :)

I guess (and I know this is cliched in our social circles), to put that last sentence another way, you should maintain a mental distinction between being a decent person and doing whatever it is you do to deal with your own discomfort with the idea that someone might see you as a potential threat.

I think I was aiming for some of this, except that I think that about 50% of the people worrying they're creepy arent' coming off as creepy at all, 40% may actually need refreshers on the general rules of society, and 10% are legitimately creepy and have creepy intentions that they want to mask.

1. Within approximation: "Mensch" works. "Comrade", if you don't mind the political connotations. "Noble" could work, but that's more directly associated with aristocracy proper as opposed to general character and less frequently used as a noun.

rm's answer also rings true, though.

2. Honestly, I think the best advice is slow down or speed up. Crossing the street preemptively strikes me as a bit patronizing.

Oh jee I dunno about Mensch (Mentsh). I always associate it with the concepts of ubermensch and especially untermensch, which gives me the screaming heebie jeebies. That might be just me though.

The problem is that in the German dialects that comes from, it is a gendered male word. I did think of this one, too, though, and I would agree otherwise.

Isn't the word for "girl" also gendered male?

Mmm, actually that's gender-neutral. Das Mädchen. German is strange.

Edited 2010-12-17 05:03 (UTC)

Right, I'd misremembered, since I don't actually speak German. (I just remembered that it wasn't female.)

The point being that in gendered-noun languages, the gender of the noun does not necessarily equal the gender of the person it describes.

Especially that sort of thing in German: the "umlaut on applicable vowel plus -chen suffix" is a diminutive and also gender-neutralizes any word. (A friend and I used to use it in class when we'd forgotten the gender of a word.)

1. A term often used in SF is "gentlebeing" -- not that this is a huge improvement over "gentleperson"; just another idea to toss into the bag.

2. Generally, position yourself in such a way that if you actually *were* an attacker, your victim would have advance warning that you were heading towards her. Duck into the street just a bit, for example. Focus your attention on other things so your "attention vector" doesn't go through her (a real attacker would be watching her for just the right moment to move), hesitate so you don't seem like you're about to do something (a real attacker would want to keep up momentum), aim yourself away from her so you'd have to turn in order to approach her, etc. Do whatever you can to increase the "warning margin".

I don't know how much any of these things actually help, but I think I've noticed mild "ok, I'm not alarmed now" vibes from individual women I've passed under these circumstances. I think. (This information is all somewhat dated, as the last time I was out walking after dark where there were other isolated people was probably Providence, 1989.)

I actually *really* like gentlebeing. Something about the non-human connotations, I guess.

~Sor

2) Strike up a conversation? Sure, a stalker might do the same, but it will make you seem less creepy, and will be an explanation for you catching up with her. If she spurns the attempt, then you're already halfway to passing her.

I think the moment they struck up a conversation would be the moment I started panicking personally :3

Ah but, then, I am from NZ, social mores about talking to people on the street may be different, I have heard from some that we are a lot more frigid than USians, more stiff like the brits.

I agree with

lyrwe. Especially, if we're talking about a situation that is likely to make the guy come off as creepy, i.e. Isolated or late night. A random make stranger trying to talk me (without an obvious purpose, like asking for direction, and possibly even then), is going to make me grip my keys or knife and speccing out where I'm most likely to find help if I need it.

I feel that most non-creepy guys would mind their own business. I like the suggestions of obviously focusing their attention elsewhere.. A male stranger taking unusual interest in me (especially anyone larger than me, which is nearly anyone) is going to set off my alarm bells.

To note, I severely dislike walking alone late at night and avoid it whenever possible.

I've been told by my GF that one part of the south that she loves is random strangers striking up, or joining, conversations. Maybe things are just different up there; they don't call it cold for nothing :)

I mean, I love chatting to strangers on pubtrans, in daylight, and/or in places where there are a lot of people around. People are generally friendly and I like talking.

But if we're talking about situations in which people are trying to avoid being creepy, that implies to me a situation that's isolated and/or with poor visibility.

It's a matter of opportunity risk, really. Any given person you pass on the street has a cetain probabily of being "creepy", which is not very high. However, predators are much less likely to act in a situation where there are witnesses, so if you're in a public place the chance of entering into a bad encounter is much lower. Passing someone late at night on a lonely street does not make them more likely to be a creep, but if they are a creep more likely to take advantage of the isolated situation. Thus people taking interest in me in those situations are viewed with suspicion.

Of course, it being daylight doesn't mean creeps won't be creeps. I've certainly been flashed and groped and leered at in the day time in public places. But really, that was all they had the power to do. If I met one of those people late at night (and I have been followed and leered at late at night when I've needeed to walk alone), I think it is not unlikey they would try something more invasive.

Seconding what Herbert says below. I do love friendly people striking up conversation (and I do think it happens more often in the deep south), but I _vastly_ prefer it when it's daylight, and when there are witnesses, or at least a regular stream of people walking by.

~Sor

If the conversation was anything more than "pardon, what's the time" (and I'd better not see a watch or a phone) or a justifiable "how do you get to X?", I'd be getting freaked out. Chatting me up on the street while I'm walking alone at night - not the thing that makes me feel safe and cozy.

+1 mensch

+1 crossing the street, or speeding up to pass while saying excuse me, or stopping for a minute to poke phone to give her some distance

There seem to be a number of suggestions along which amount to "stop walking at the same pace". In terms of how to make that seem harmless, I'm not sure there's much you can do.

I get paranoid about little (male or female) kids walking behind me, though not little old ladies. When people are talking on their phone I wonder if they're just doing it for show.

If I'm feeling paranoid about a particular behavior, regardless of body shape, there's not much that will make that stop short of the behavior itself stopping.

1) "Gentles" works well in the SCA - "Good Gentles!" is often used as a replacement for "Ladies and Gentlemen!"

2) No good answer - closing to pass might be taken as an attack run while anything that could be considered making contact would be considered an uncalled for intrusion.

On a semi-related note: "Non-threatening" is my superpower. Most of the time I hate it as a superpower, but it is occasionally useful.

Gentlefolk, or informal version - folks.

Another suggestion for 2- Be short. Being a short person does an amazing job at reducing discomfort in such situations. Unfortunately, most humans don't have much control of their height. So this might not be an option in practice.

So it just struck me... "Gent" is a wonderful abbreviation that specifies no gender at all. It's obviously more informal, but in a good-natured sort of way.

Now I'm considering making a group for Gents of all genders on FetLife.

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