sorcyress | Ampersands and Trust

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Ampersands and Trust

I don't want to live my life
On one side of an ampersand¹
Even if I went with you
I'm not the girl you think I am
And I don't want to match you
'Cause I'll lose my voice completely

(Ampersand, Amanda Palmer. There's a little bit more to the chorus, but it's not important to the way I interpret the lyrics. Me, interpreting things, it's enough to make a cat laugh.)

To me, ever since the first time I really Heard the lyrics, actually Listened to them, instead of just letting the music wash over me as I am so wont to do, I realized that Amanda was talking about something that terrifies me. On one side of an ampersand? She (I) doesn't want to be part of a pair, oh look, there is AmandaandBrian, KatandAnyone. No. Just please, no.

And my fear terrifies me.

I've been alluding to this, bits and pieces and slipped words. A sentence here and there, nothing anyone would notice, not without being able to see the big picture. And the brilliant part of talking to you and you and you is that no one besides me ever gets to see the big picture.

Call it want of freedom, call it my own asexuality (which was never asexual somuch as aromantic, I realise) call it fear of intimacy, call it all or none of the above, it's still there. I'm beginning to get to an age where I can get into relationships that last forever, last the rest of my life, last until marriage and beyond, and dear gods.

Dear gods, I'm petrified.

This...These feelings, the way I love people now means I don't want to lose them. I've been able to enter every relationship safe in the knowledge that it was going to end. High school relationships don't last, silly, people are too different. Hell, the fact that Blue and I made it almost a full year is inherently boggling, a year long relationship? At fifteen, sixteen? We were freaks.

I don't have that safety anymore. I can't rest easy in the knowledge that it will, eventually, end.

Oh, of course it still will. I don't fool myself, my prediliction for older men² means I tend very towards people who're at enough of a different place from me that eventually we will fragment, and that's okay. I'm alright with losing love (though I never want to lose friendship). But sometimes...I fool myself. Or my mind fools itself. And I realize that I don't want it to end, not ever.

And ye gods, with that realization...I want to run.

I want to run and run and run and hide and be all by myself for a long long while and that's terrible. It's escapism of the worst sort, it's shutting myself off because I just can't accept the idea that maybe it's okay to have someone else there to support you. Because maybe I don't have to go through all of life alone. Because maybe I'm not the only one who can take care of me.

Because maybe being independent is lonely, and maybe being as truly free as I feel I want involves building walls so thick and high that I'll never be able to see the world through them. And I do like the world.

Growing up is scary, but why does it seem so much safer if I could just manage to do it alone.

I...I guess all I'm trying to say is that my therapist was right (damn her) and I think I'm scared of intimacy. I already knew I was scared of opening up, for reasons I've never been able to grasp. I'm scared of perfection for reasons half rational (as hard as I try to achieve it). I never realized that I was scared of safety.

If I flirt with everyone, smile and flounce, keep myself from never falling in love, then no one can ever care about me, and I'll never care about them. All hearts will be safe, unbroken. If I need to bury my face in a shoulder, I just have to turn to the nearest Toy, held fast in walls spun of quick-witted bullshit, rapidfire excuses for the tears on my face, my Need for arms around me.

And I'm sure that would work much better if I never slipped. Heels are pretty, sure, but I still trip, and tumble heart over head into love. And being in love means I have to care, have to be intimate, have to actually let myself open and be honest --I'm terrible at being honest, not in a way that causes me to lie, but in the actual speach, actually getting myself to the point where I can say the words that I need to sometimes. I'm getting better --I've been getting better for most of the last year, learning how to say I need help, say what's going through my mind.

I think I've been falling in Love. Not just loving people, I'm good at that, used to that. Ever since I first managed to tell Veronica that I loved her (not in any weird way, just as a friend, do you understand?) so very long ago (when such words were not to be spoken) not a day has gone by where the phrase hasn't passed my lips. But being in love? That's a lot harder. A *lot* harder, and it keeps happening, once, twice, thr...

I don't know what I'm going to do about this. At the very least, oh, does it feel good to write. I half whispered earlier, tears carefully hid from my eyes "I don't have a home" but I *do*, I so very do. My home has always been my words, given a blank page and a nudge in the right direction, I can weave myself a safety so strong I can almost feel the phantom arms protecting me.

I suppose what I'm going to do is let myself be open. Force myself from running. Maybe sometime I'll find myself on one side of that ampersand, and maybe I won't mind it so much.

I think it's time to face fears. To figure out why they are, and let myself defeat them. Let myself be serious, for once in my life, because for once in my life, I have found something worth being serious about.

Let myself fall in love. One, two, not quite three times, and see what it's like not being totally alone. Contemplate marriage, a mortgage, and a wall that does not encompass me alone.

We'll see.

&Sor
MOOP!

1: Though, to paraphrase Magus, it would not be terrible to live life on one side of an incubus/succubus. [/obscure Nethack joke]
2: And my beautiful younger woman exception is a whole different sort of case, and one I don't wish to discuss here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

My head fills with words but i doubt i'll be able to get many of them out.. mainly because of a sinking feeling of inadequacy of the way you will view them & me...

But the first thing that pops into my head is the fascinating way i'm completely opposite to that.. i fear being alone.. i fear not being in love.. the only fear i have of being in love is getting abused again because i love so helplessly & completely that i never see it coming when the blows strike...

And And And.. i just.. want to connect with you & tell you ... Stuff! *flails* this word thing is not working. Augh.

But i guess the last thing you need in here is an angsty ~~whiny emo~~ comment for your post when all i am trying to do is be supportive but maybe you do not want that from me either...

Soyar. Growing up is a pain. i have absolutely no intentions of ever doing so myself. *nods*

Har! breathe.

I like comments. I like people. I love and am endlessly fascinated by the Way People Work, and that will never change no matter how *vague hand motions* I get. You are to write as much as you want to me, if it'll make you better able to do it, I'll *order* you to write as much as you want, need to me.

I do think it's fascinating we are so opposite. I've long since noticed that I oft run counter to the world, you are only proof.

~Sor

*takes deep breaths*

Heh, i do forget to do that sometimes >.>

It's always good to see that.. i had to write a post-it note & hang it by my computer to remind me that Talia likes long comments back when i'd go on & on & on in her elljay because i was always so sure that i was annoying her with them ;p

That said, sometimes stuff does get stuck in my head because i guess it is zooping around so quickly in there that i can't quite pin what i'm thinking down. i think possibly part of what was in there was this horrified notion that you thought/think that you cannot allow yourself to love and man, all you need is love and if you don't have love then what's the point & so on... so you see this is the very base of my being & i freak out a little (regardless of whether it's appropriate or not) if i think i see someone who is not going to have the benefit of knowing love.

But i was also confused because you are one of the most loving people i know and then i thought well, she means that other "love" and then that reverts me back to the long discussions W&I have had about "what is love anyway?" and society's expectations & whatnot and us probly getting way too spastic about the whole thing.

And see, i thought we had that love thing in common so i was confused about how opposite we were and then i realize i'm doing that Black & White thinking thing again whereby it doesn't have to be All or Nothing, does it?

*remembers to breathe again*

i often feel like i think too much but as Swinger once told me quite a long time ago, i don't think too much, i just listen too much.

I forget to breath sometimes too. It happens.

Do I need to write a post-it note for you telling you that it's okay and encouraged to write 'em in my journal too?

*smiles* Thank you for caring about me, lovely Har girl. I promise that I have a lot of love in my life, and I don't think I could ever actually pull away from it. For all I say I wouldn't mind being freed of all platonic obligations, I think I'd get lonely, and that would be a damn shame.

I don't mean that other love. Well, I mean, I largely did for this one, the sort of love I feel for a significant other rather than for a friend. But the pulling away thing...yeah. :/

*pets* Love you babe. I'm glad you listen. I like it.

~Sor

And i don't want to be a burden! i feel like my clingyness is dragging people down.. or will... 'specially when i see them talking about doing the Pulling Away thing... my kneejerk is "oh, it's me. i am being too clingy again" and taht probly came from icky ex's berating me for "causing" them to do just that (the first one accused me of being the one who made him alcoholic, #2 said i smothered him) so unwriting that has been tricksy.

And if you want to write a post-it knote (*leaves first-thing-in-the-morning typo because it amuses me*), i'd love it! Your other one is a beacon for me.. even on days where i don't believe it. i make meself look at it anyway. You Wrote It. It Must be True. *nod*

i just waaaaant to beeee youuur frieeeeeend.. and Rtizy'ssssss and Swingerrrr'sss... i want to be Special to you guys and not be annoying and drive you awaaaaay (another miswriting to the harddrive by ex's)...

*dooks* I Love You Too. i will always care. And i'm glad you don't mind me listening (& reacting). i'm glad you like it 'cause for all my "ack, i should go away & leave these people alone Forever", i wouldn't know how to be any other way.

*hgugles againgain*

Har! Seriously! You're fine, you don't overly cling to me, at all. Sometimes I just need to pull away from everyone, and the only person who's fault it is is me --I forget to give myself time alone once in a while, okay? It's no one smothering me, it's me just smothering myself.

I will try and remember to write it and send it!

You are my friend, okay? Do I need to say that louder? You are my friend! And I love you, and think you're wonderful.

(And seriously, if I ever meet your exes in a dark alley, they will have some explaining to do. *growls*)

*pets more*

~Sor

*gleeeee*

Thank You! And especially today, i needed to see this comment for i have been full of self-hate, doubt, and anger & despair and it's all just hormonal sleep deprived crap but it sneaks in through the edges, y'know? You saying it louder never hurts, heh.

. o O (Sor thinks i'm wonderful! *poingpoings*)

(Heh, get in line! i have had a few offers to beat up Chas, which amuses me greatly... Rick (Mel's dad) you don't have to worry about... his own stupidity got himself killed several years ago: He was a diabetic & refused to take care of himself :P)(For some reason, i did not feel any remorse when i heard that when they found his body it had been dead for several days >.>)

*dooks happily*

Psh! Tell your negvox to go take a long walk off a short pier! Tell 'em to make like a banana and split! Tell 'em to make like a tree and leaf. Make like a drummer and beat it! Make like a tire and hit the road! Make like a bread truck and haul buns! Make like lightning and bolt! Make like Houdini and disappear! Make like an airplane and take off! Make like rain and get the hail out of here!!

(I kinda had fun with that)

Some people don't really deserve remorse, I think. If he hurt you, and he's gone, just let it be.

~Sor

Eeehehehehehe, you made me laugh outloud with those! ;D

Aye, and considering my propensity to feeling guilt about such things, it's rather amazing that i was able to do so without any. *lets it be*

Making you laugh was totally my goal. <3!

~Sor

You totally scored! ^_^

. o O (shoulda used this icon for my other response)

I love you and I just feel that you need someone to tell you that everyday, cause you are just that awesome. And it is hard to face rejection when realtionships are the easiest was to get hurt. If you ever need anything, and I mean anything. I will always, ALWAYS be there for you.

Yeah. i totally Agree.

*hgugles*

*hugglesback*

Thank you, Har.

You are so very welcome!

*hguglesmore*

*blushies and smiles*

Veronica, I love you to bits and pieces. And I know you will be there, are there for me. I can only hope I can do the same for you, because you are totally more awesome than me, and I will love you more than you can ever know.

*hugstight*

~Sor

Phbbbt. I'm not a toy, not looking for anything from you, don't even know you all that well yet, but already care about you anyway. So there. And I'm certain I'm far from the only one. They're valid fears, but still fears to overcome, and whatever the right answers might be (I don't know them either, and they vary from person to person anyway), I'm pretty sure pushing people away isn't one of them.

*smiles shakily* And that's the problem, I think --I admit, I was less than perfectly clear with this post, but part of the thing for me is the fact that you people *do* care, and if you care, I can't run away from you, not without hurting you.

And I do so hate hurting people.

Your words are beautiful though, and I appreciate them. I will try not to push people away.

~Sor

Oh, I can certainly relate. I've been told in various ways of late that whether pleasing people or hurting people, there's always a balancing act with pleasing or hurting oneself. Compassion and sacrifice are idealized and selfishness is vilified (by most people anyway. I hope.), but what they have in common is that they're both extremes, and extremes just don't work so well. Perfect balance is that nobody is happy and nobody is hurt, but that's a gray and lifeless place. So, some amount of flux is a good thing. I think. Anyway, I'm probably rambling so I'll stop now.

*nods* Flux is a good point --I do try to be at the sacrifice end of the spectrum more often, but I am (slowly) learning how to properly be selfish when I need to.

I like rambling, though. I certainly do it often enough, I really ought to listen to other people when they partake.

~Sor

Well, that explains that catch in your voice Monday night...

I've always been terrified of the ampersand. I still am. Heck, I've had some unpleasant experiences due to it. But in thinking about how to respond to this, I had a thought which is relevant to me, and might be to you, too. There are three people who might start thinking of you as "Kat & <foo>". You, <foo>, and other people. Which one do you care about/which one are you worried about? (There are good reasons for all three.) If it's entirely external, yes, it affects how people interact with you, but is it important to be afraid of it/fight it, or is it sufficient to speak up when people take the actions as a result of the way they're thinking which make you uncomfortable? Yourself, you can somewhat control, and your partner, you can talk to more deeply about exactly what it is you're afraid of and how to keep it from happening.

Also, you're not terrible at being honest. You find it difficult. There's a difference.

I don't want it to end. It might, or it might radically change, and that's ok. But it might not, and that's scary, but it's ok too. And I'd prefer the positive-and-ok to the negative-but-ok. I think sometimes about how it will work if it doesn't (end).

:| I totally do not remember which catch this was, mostly because my paying attention abilities are shot all to hell during Important Things. Tell me later?

You...have a very good point regarding who it really matters to. Huh. I'll have to think on that one.

Saying I find honesty difficult is somewhat closer to the actual thing, but still sounds like I lie too much, which is not true. Dunno.

Small text is small. Private conversation warrents a private forum, yah?

~Sor

I will.

Yes, they do. That statement was made in the full awareness that it was being made in public, to anybody who cared enough to read it. I would expect any called-for follow-up to be private.

Wow.

You share such intimate parts of yourself with us. I'm just shy (too secretive?) to do that, but it would be really nice to be able to. I'm in awe of that ability.

Oh, and thank you for letting us/me in to see this inner you.

*hug*

Yeah, well, note that it's all in text. I couldn't say all this vocally, no matter how hard I tried.

I'm getting better at letting the walls down. Just takes practise and trust.

~Sor

I'm kind of the opposite, too; I've always wanted to be in love, always wanted to be part of "Benet & ". In fact, I guess I'm greedy enough to want to be an operand of multiple ampersands, which raises some interesting issues just for typography. Hence resorting to graph theory. :)

On the other hand..
I'm alright with losing love (though I never want to lose friendship).

Oh, man. It was only this year that I really managed to thoroughly break a promising new friendship by pursuing a romantic relationship. Slowly I'm putting it back together, with a lot of false starts, but it may not be the same thing it would have been, had I kept my feelings to myself. And yet, short-lived though it was, I'd have missed some amazing things. Hard to say what I should have done. But having the connection drop to nearly nothing is way, way worse than going back to Just Friends would have been.

Erm, which might be kind of orthogonal to your point, beyond being an "I hear you, this is what it relates to in my experience".

And I care about you, also, though of course we are still in reasonably early stages of getting to know one another.

*chuckles* It does relate, and I wish you the best with that one.

I've noticed that I tend to run counter to a LOT of the world in a LOT of ways --and not just the ways that most of the fandom run counter to the mundanes, I occasionally find myself running counter to other fen. This is just one of those, I think.

Hee, I like your typography comment.

~Sor

I don't really know what to say except that I both envy you your journey and am crossing my fingers and toes that you are able to navigate past the minefields ahead. I imagine that if I had it to do all over again I would make the exact same number of mistakes and learn all those important lessons the only way they can be learned--the hard way.

You have a good head on your shoulders, a blank page in front of you, and a pen in your hand. It's going to hurt like hell, but you're going to be fine.

Zsu

Heh. Can't that be said of all of life? I'll try to avoid the mines, I promise.

It's going to hurt like hell, but you're going to be fine

That is a Damn Good Line. I'm putting it in the quote file.

~Sor

Well.

I love you.

And I wish I could hug you.

I love you too. And I'd like that, kiddo.

~Sor

I fail to see how you can call yourself asexual and polyamorous at the same time.

Because love isn't about sex.

Well, just about sex.

*looks up to the bit about Sor being "aromantic"*

*considers the term "polyamorous relationship," which kind of by definition knocks aside the possibility of any "love" being involved in any of the said "relationships"*

Now, how exactly does your argument relate to this scenario? I'm not really all that certain that it does.

Because Erika asked about being simultaneously polyamorous and asexual. Polyamory is about loving more than one person at a time, asexuality is about being disinterested in sex or having no sex drive. As love and sex are two different things, it is possible to be both asexual and polyamorous at the same time.

I find there are still some contradictions, but mostly based off the fact that I really find love a disgusting and untrue concept. I deny your reality and substitute my own! :P

Makes sense now, though, at least. To each their own and all that.

To each their own and all that.

Quite so.

Indeed, what what.

*adjusts monocle*

Mmmyes.

"Love" is one of those words that has too many possible definitions; too often it's just a substitute for "Hey, I exist, and I want credit for associating myself with you!" or similar.

As such, I often wonder if I should even use it... sometimes it seems cruel not to (because whatever little it may mean when you do say it, it's like you're withholding even that if you won't say it), but on the other hand it doesn't really quite ever sound like what I want it to mean.

Or something. I'm rambling. Need to finish reading these comments and respond to the post overall. Because there aren't enough comments.

*considers the term "polyamorous relationship," which kind of by definition knocks aside the possibility of any "love" being involved in any of the said "relationships"*

Hm? I must be misreading this — taken at face value, you seem to be saying that polyamorous relationships can't involve love. Obviously that's false — what are you actually saying?

Obviously that's totally and completely false. Sorry if I was ambiguous there.

What I meant to say is that polyamorous relationships can't involve love.

...ooookay. Well, that will come as a surprise to a lot of poly people and all the people they're in love with, but I guess that's pretty unambiguous.

"All the people they're in love with."

You mispelled "lust." It's got a "u" and an "s" and a "t" in that order, after the "l," and you've added in a bunch of extra letters.

I'm not going to get into a flame war with a teenager on someone else's LJ. You clearly have strong feelings about polyamory, which is fine; you're free to define love however you like. You can say, for you, true love requires monogamy, or gifts of shortbread on Arbor Day, or whatever you like.

I will say this: poly people (including the person whose journal you're posting in) certainly believe they are (or can be) in love with multiple people at once. They form long-term relationships with one another, some lasting longer than you've been alive, and they're pretty indistinguishable from long-term monogamous relationships. They argue, they make up, they miss each other, they poke each other's noses, they buy houses together. Most importantly, they say they're in love with each other, and I think they're the ones who get to decide that, not me and not you.

There are a lot of people in this world who think homosexual couples aren't really in love with each other. They say it's just misguided lust, that it's unnatural, that proper romantic love can only work between a man and a woman. Those people piss me off to no end, and I suspect they piss you off as well.

Just sayin'.

Woah-ee there, man. I don't know how old you are, but back off from the condescending seniority card, for serious. :P We're all young at heart here.
I don't really think Ky was trying to say polyamory is necessarily unnatural so much as not always gone into with the best intentions.

(Although I guess that could be said of all relationships, so.)

Woah-ee there, man. I don't know how old you are, but back off from the condescending seniority card, for serious.

Agreed; that was unnecessary. I was trying to say that an unknown teenager and I are going to have such different perspectives on love that we aren't likely to reach agreement in an LJ comment thread, but it came off condescending instead. Apologies,

jestingly_yours.

Ky? Can you possibly explain your point of view there? Because I vehemently disagree --I love my girlfriend, I love my boyfriend, and spending time with one does not diminish the love I feel for the other. The word itself implies love, poly-many amory-love, and I definitely consider myself to be solidly polyamorous, thanks.

Advance apologies if any of this came off harsher than I intended.

~Sor

To me, the idea of "love" kind of equates with choosing one person over all others, including yourself. To say that you choose two or ten or twenty thousand people over everyone else really isn't saying much about any or either of them.

Polygamy, I can wrap my mind around. Anyone can get married. I can understand being conflicted between a few people. But to say, "Heck with it, I'll just pick all of them" seems selfish and lazy and dishonest. Selfish because you're putting your desires for sex/cuddling/Deep Conversation/whatever over the people you supposedly "love," who are forced to share you. Lazy because you can't be fucked to figure out what you really want. And dishonest because you're telling each of your "significant" others that they are Special and Unique Snowflakes meant for You, you're telling yourself that each of them is Equal to the others.

It degrades everyone involved.

I don't feel degraded. I feel enriched by

kdsorceress's love. I'm confident she has never been dishonest with me (she certainly hasn't about this). And I am certainly not forced to do anything--I entered this relationship voluntarily and with my eyes fully open as to the fact that she would be in other relationships, as am I.

It seems you are operating under a different definition of the word "love" than we are. It's probably going to make productive dialogue difficult. To me, love is about an emotional connection and sharing and caring and lots of other things, but it's not inherently about exclusivity or possessiveness.

My experience is that love is not a scarce resource: my giving love to one thing doesn't diminish my ability to give love to another person, and I expect the same of others. (Note: time is a scarce resource, and allocating it in a poly setting is significantly more difficult, but that difficulty exists within monoamory, and not being able to spend infinite time with someone doesn't mean I love them any less, just that I don't have infinite time.)

I hope this helps give you a better sense of where some of us are coming from and why we might find it hurtful when you deny the existence of the emotions we feel.

Seems to me it's only degrading if you're "forcing" them -- I mean, if everyone in the relationship is happy to share, then what's the problem?

You can say it's not for you -- or you can say it doesn't fit your definition of [romantic] love -- but since the word is commonly used with very similar meaning in non-exclusive contexts ("I love my family") and none of the dictionary definitions (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/love) seem to imply exclusivity (with 1a2, "attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers" seeming the closest to the usage we're discussing), I don't think you can say that polyamory violates it universally, or that it can only be used in a way which implies exclusivity.

And if everyone in it is a consenting and informed sentient being (consenting to what? having more than one person love them (by their definition)? how terrible!), I don't think you can say it's screwing anyone over either.

Seems to me that one would be screwing someone over more by forcing oneself to choose between them and someone else: "Oh, sorry, you're a great person and I'd really like to love you forever, but I've decided you're inferior to X over here, so I love them forever instead."

"Lazy" also doesn't make sense; it's more work to keep multiple close relationships going.

I suspect that there may be hard-wiring involved, here; some people may be inherently monogamous. Others clearly are not, and it's not just a matter of people being exploitative -- or else poly people would always be trying to hook up with mono people, rather than with other poly people.

And now you probably hate me, so I should stop rambling. (I've got plenty of conservatives I could be alienating; shouldn't waste it on real people whom I'd rather not...)

May the deities of your choosing protect you, lovely W woman. You are wonderful.

~Sor

Honestly, it's not even what Kat was saying, about sexuality and amory being different things. For me, it's the fact that -to an extent- polyamory and aamory are not a black-white spectrum, they're two seperate spectrums (like masculinity and femininity)

More to the point, I don't generally think of myself as an aamorous person anymore. When I was a younger teenager (and you have no way of knowing this, I should've been more clear) I was pretty against the idea of relationships in general and mine in specific. While this has largely changed, my ninth grade self tends to resurface occasionally and influence my current state of mind, including just now.

~Sor

I think I relate -- although it's not the & that bothers me, it's permanence that freaks me out.

*pets*

Permanence in general scares me, for all that the opposite scares me more. I think it's just that I'm scared of stagnating.

~Sor

Makes sense.

I can't rest easy in the knowledge that it will, eventually, end.
How very Dubby of you. :P EDIT: On second thought, perhaps it's exactly anti-Dubby. I'm not sure.

Ahh, but being scared of safety is entirely rational, because we know that nothing lasts forever and there's always the chance, however small, that the provider of said safety will leave in one way or another, or you'll leave in one way or another, and losing the feeling of safety might be worse than not having it at all.

Icon for djoo.

Edited 2009-01-23 07:21 (UTC)

Thank you for icon. It is very sweet of you.

I can't really tell whether it's Dubby or anti-Dubby either. It weirds me out, man.

Yeah. *hugs?*

~Sor

Yup. ::hugs::

I have fears, too. I'm not good at talking about them in public, though, so ask me sometime? In text or in person.

*salutes*

I will do my best to do this. Remind me? *grins*

~Sor

Very intriguing post. =) We all have our own unique defense mechanisms. It sort of gives me an idea for a post of my own.

(not in any weird way, just as a friend, do you understand?)
I think maybe the word you're looking for is platonic love (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/platonic%20love)

Growing up is scary
Agreed. That's why I'm trying my best not to. Although I suspect your version of growing up differs from mine. That may have to be another post of mine.

Ok. That's enough blathering out of me. (For now)

POOF!
*Returns to Relative Obscurity*

Re: Platonic love --oh yes, I quite know that now. I was referring to a time when I didn't, really, and had to justify my love to my best friend.

I want to see this post on growing up.

Never! I love blather.

~Sor

It's interesting to see you thinking about things I subconsciously refuse to think about, but for entirely different reasons.

There are things I want to say, but I'm not quite sure what they are. let me skim the surface a bit.

I'm reminded of my previous roommate, a girl who had the most beautiful walls you've ever seen. They worked well, they never faltered, and the only reason you could tell they were walls is because sometimes they just didn't make sense. You know in a video game when you hit an invisible wall? The only way you know it's there is because movement isn't happening like you'd expect.

Living with her for 3 years, and seeing her go through some of the biggest changes in her life, I got to know those walls, the reasoning, the feelings they reflected, where they came from and why... I wonder, though, if I ever met the real girl. that leads me to wonder if anyone ever really meets anyone. I am not even sure I know what that would be like.
And to return to your topics, maybe that's part of the In Love thing people talk about. I know part of it is Complete Acceptance of the other person (which I think is the bit that some of those non-believers up there haven't heard... it's not about warping perspective, it's about accepting)

And I must say, meeting people from the internet has shown me how hard it is to know someone and be known. It's marvelous, but, the internet is almost like a metafore for interactions. I see their text, their speach mannerisms, their wit, but I don't hear their voice inflections or accents, I don't get to see the typoes that they backspace or the things they say and then regret.

So when I'm talking to them in person, it's a step closer, but I'm betting there's another step to take.

knowwha'msay'n?

As for the bulk of your post, love and relationships, I am somewhat regretfully without anything to say, really. I feel uninformed on the subject, which is the unthought content mentioned at the beginning of this comment. So, that is all.

Enjoy your day. And the next one. Just because I said so.

Walls...walls are a scary fucking part of me. I'm not always happy about them, and wish I was better at seeing them on other people.

that leads me to wonder if anyone ever really meets anyone.

Jesus christ, this is a depressing and beautiful line. And no. I don't think we do. There are people who've seen a lot of who I am at any given instant in time, and even a few who've seen a lot of who I am over a few months, years. But no one who I could say with confidence has really met what is truly me. And I don't know that I can say I've truly met anyone. There are masks that are good to keep, after all, as well. Even if you love someone, you cannot help but be annoyed by them once in a while.

You've reminded me of another quote, from Something*Positive: "Could you imagine how horrible things would be if we always told others how we felt? Life would be intolerably bearable."

I bet there's another step to take, too, but I'm not positive I know what it is.

*pets* It's okay to be uninformed. Your comment was plenty interesting.

And I am pretty sure I did enjoy my next few days, thank you.

~Sor

::hug:: because you always deserve one.

We all have fears. Fear of being alone, fear of being together. I'm afraid that I'll never find permanence because I am too difficult a person to deal with for any extent of time. I'm still sort of scared of the idea of permanence itself, even. Stagnation scares me, but the thought of not being alone, being emotionally, spiritually (and physically) homeless scares me more. I'm scared to be trusted because I'm afraid I will fail those who trust me. I was scared to learn that my boy wanted to be with others; not because he loved me any less, not because I wasn't "enough", though those thoughts certainly dwelled in my mind, but while I knew it conceptually, it has been difficult accepting it in reality (though I think I have been doing well there). I'm afraid of getting stuck in trying to conform to expectations, any of the masks that I wore/wear to keep my (easily assailed - I'm not good at defenses) walls invisible, so that eventually I'd lose any ability to be myself. I'm also afraid of not living up to my and other's expectations, most of which are in my head, I admit.

Some of my fears are more instinctual: fear of dogs, fear of dark, lonely spaces. When I was younger I was afraid of basements and tunnels. These fears I do not think I will ever get over entirely, because they are too base, too ingrained, though I force myself to deal with them when I need. However, those of the paragraph above? Those are fears that only humans are complex enough to be cursed with (I think; I can't say for certain, but I certainly wouldn't wish them on another species), but they can be dealt with, because we're strong, (and you are a very strong person if I ever saw one) and because we are not alone. We need each other, not just one person, or just S.O.s, but parents, friends, teachers, mentors, the guy on the street who holds the door for you with a smile, the homeless person you give your leftovers too. We need and want to be needed. Life is too short, too confusing, too hard to go it on your own. Life is not a test.

Thinking about relationships over the past month, I came up with my working idea of what I think a perfect relationship for me could be. Rather, having someone to come home to each night (emotionally especially, but preferably literally too), but at the same time not being afraid to wander in the day (day and night are not to be taken literally also) because you're confident in your love for the person waiting for you at home and confident in their love for you. Though I fear if finding that, especially such confidence, is even possible, for someone as insecure as me.

Okay, all this emoting is giving me a headache; we'll talk later, okay?

Also: I had a dream about you last night. Remind me and I'll tell you about it.

Much love,
Herbert.

*hugsback*
*hugstight*

The being able to come home to someone at night is a common thread in the way that I view love and life and poly. Part of the reason I think I'm able to deal with poly so well is because, with both my SOs, even if they spend time with other people, I know that eventually, they will return to sleeping with me.

Love back!
~Sor

*comes and snuggles you to help you sort out doubt*

For me, it's not about fear of an ampersand, but a fear of lack of ampersands. I have a lot of them, and I try to keep them from conflicting with each other.

Every friendship I have is an ampersand of some sort. Romantic relationships too. If someone sees me coming with my best friend they say 'oh, it's

ladymondegreen and

angelrenaissanc' and I like that. Partially, I think because I don't get anything like as much time with any one person who matters to me as I should. Perhaps that's why I've learned to relish and enjoy being conjoined -- in punctuation at least -- with my friends and lovers, because I know it can't last, even though I want it to. Time and geography are the great dividers for me.

I hope you don't mind if, in our few hours together every few months, someone ampersands us.

Love,
LMG

Mm, thank you. Snuggles are always a satisfactory way of dealing with doubt.

I don't think I really thought about the prospect of friendships as ampersands, but it feels completely different and almost a bit like an honoriffic. "Oh look, it's Kat and Veronica, Sor and Katters" It feels Right. Special, maybe?

Time and geography are the great dividers for all of us, mayhaps. Money tends to screw me over a lot, too.

I...I don't think I would mind. You're quite a wonderful person, madame. I'm glad I've met you.

~Sor

Four years later, and this is the comment that sticks out strongest in my head. I still don't think of ampersands naturally as a tool of friendship, but with another half decade (or so) of wisdom to look like, I can properly appreciate how poetic it is when you say you enjoy being conjoined in punctuation with those you care for.

Thank you.

~Sor

Wow. This post sends my head off in a dozen different directions; I'll try to stick to the most important ones. (And I hope I've correctly understood the gist of the dilemma (dilemmae?) you face...) [ In retrospect, as I edit and re-edit, I realize that I've gradually homed in on what I think you're talking about... but bits of this were written when I was still hunting around trying to figure out what that was. So it will probably seem a bit uneven, but those bits seem too important to not say. ]

(And it turns out that this is over 4300 characters, so I'm gonna post the rest of it separately, as a reply to myself, and hope that it is small enough...)

First of all... (I think you must have read this (http://wiki.hypertwins.org/The_Hyperfamily_Idea) (I have vague memories that we've even talked about it a little), but just in case you haven't...) in light of what you've said here, I would probably want to make sure there was something in there about different levels of permanence -- that some family members could be more year-round residents, others could be part-time, and some would be like visiting best friends. I think I alluded to that, but I don't remember what I said. When I originally wrote it, there was a particular friend I had in mind who would probably have spend most of her time separate from the group, and I felt it important to make sure she felt safe-and-wanted even under those circumstances.

Second... it sounds a little like you're assuming that what you want from a relationship is somehow unfair to ask. For example, it sounds like you would like to have the freedom to disappear for long stretches of time, but also to have the security of knowing that your family will always be there when you're ready to come back. Perhaps there are other things you would like, but are thinking you couldn't reasonably ask.

It might be helpful to make a list of these things. Don't worry if they're fair or not; fairness comes in working out what compromises you're willing to deal with in order to get what you want. Just wanting something isn't a crime, and it's very important to know what you want -- to be aware of it consciously, so that it doesn't try to manipulate you below your conscious radar.

And maybe they're not as unreasonable as you think.

Note: it's much easier to deal with someone running away, from time to time, if one understands the probable reasons -- or maybe I mean "understands what the reasons probably aren't". When Jenny would "run away" (e.g. disappearing over lunch when I was looking forward to a nice long conversation), I tended to assume it was something I had done, which of course I had to find her and fix. In a sense, sometimes it was -- demanding too much attention from her -- but it wasn't always, and my assumptions only made the matter worse. If I had understood from the beginning that this was just part of her nature, I could have dealt with it better (leaving aside my general screwedupness at the time).

Third: if you don't feel like you want to be a non-detachable fixture, then maybe that's not what you need to be. Whatever you do end up belonging to, you shouldn't have to chop off a part of yourself in order to fit into it. Be who you are to the fullest extent -- that's what I care about.

My personal experience has been that it's much better to work out what you want and design a relationship around that than it is to try out other people's pre-packaged ideas of what relationships should be, and hope that they're close enough.

Another thing which seems to be true is that you shouldn't necessarily leave a relationship (or start one) just because that's where the Story seems to be going -- because that's what would happen next if it were a movie. I think that idea played a significant part in my thinking on at least two occasions, and it really shouldn't have. (If we're being written, somehow, it would be annoying if the plot were so predictable.) Hopefully you're not falling for that sort of thinking. The question should always be, what do you want? (...which can include someone else's happiness -- but if it doesn't, then I don't really see any virtue in pretending it does. Be what you're like, be like yourself...)

"Being scared of intimacy" strikes me as too simplistic of an explanation -- a little like "Story" thinking. Maybe it's right, but picture me eyeballing it suspiciously... Intimacy itself isn't scary, I shouldn't think, but maybe something about it is. Being thoroughly examined, and possibly found wanting? Not being able to escape from someone else's disagreement by just walking away? Something. Try to figure out what it is. (Maybe more than one thing.)

Avoid the mortgage, though. I have a whole bunch of related thoughts on that, but it's another kettle of worms entirely... Bring it up if you want more rambling ;-)

I've spend a couple of decades now as part of different ampersands.

The first one that lasted any length of time was pretty informal - and generally a happy thing, because we both knew that although we would gladly settle together in the same house and live there forever if the opportunity arose, we didn't feel bound by the rules of courtship (much less "marriage") which assumed we were doing certain things (which we weren't) and that we wanted certain things from the relationship (which we didn't). There was the freedom for other ampersands to appear, at any angle. And they did, and it didn't always work in a clearly positive way for me, but it never felt negative.

I think part of why I left was because it seemed like destiny was pulling us apart, and I was tired of fighting destiny.

The next one I went into only reluctantly, giving myself lots of arguments which had been handed to me by society and which largely turned out to be bogus for me (though not for the other person, who has now remarried). I remember thinking "okay, it's time to get serious about this if you really want something lasting."

But it was a mistake. It was a little like (entirely fictional metaphor) trying to get BBC America on cable, and finding that the only package which included it was mostly sports channels. It was supposed to be the right solution for getting what I wanted, because there was no other solution offered, but the people who put together the package had a completely wrong understanding of what my interests were.

In both of those cases, I think I let expectations and the Story -- the expectation that the narrative was inevitably heading in a certain direction which it would be foolish and impudent of me to resist -- play too much of a part in the decision-making. I could have made different decisions, and things probably would have turned out a lot better.

And of course I am now in another informal ampersand, and that fits much more naturally. It's also a little awkward because on the surface it looks like the more formal type, and people tend to assume that it is that type, so we get some of the negatives of that type completely without having chosen it. And we are tremendously tied down -- but that comes from mistakes made earlier, not the ampersand itself.

And yeah, it feels odd to put that ampersand on emails and other places... but only (or mainly) because I know people are making assumptions that don't fit the facts, and there's generally fallout whenever we violate their expectations.

--

Hope that's useful.

Speaking as someone who is realizing just how much ampersand he's actually shedded recently...

...this was really interesting.

I'm glad! My livejournal is a lot of things, and I worry that interesting does not appear on the list often enough.

~Sor

I've never been afraid of the ampersand; I commit to people. When I fall in love, it's usually after a period of friendship, so I already know them and trust them and am comfortable sharing things with them. And from the moment that I fall in love, I'm pretty much fiercely loyal. And if we grow apart (most notably in the case of my high school boyfriend who I dated for about 6 years), I still care about them and enjoy spending time with them. Also, this past week I've been realizing more than ever how much I want a person to come home to after a long day.

There's also the fact that I've always wanted to settle down in a house¹ with a lawn and lots of pets and 2.3 children. And I have the skills to be the perfect housewife. My problem will be more of balancing everything I want to do than anything else.

But back to the ampersand. I do make a distinct difference between z & w and zandw. When you remove the spaces, it starts to get a bit weird. When you remove the and (zw), then it gets worrisome/frightening, like a couple I knew in college.

1 - That house will be fabulous, by the way. Gourmet kitchen, ballrooms², library. Well, the dancing ballroom may be in a coachhouse that has a small kitchen and changing rooms to the side so that I don't have to deal with the large space in my house when I'm not holding a ball. But yeah. It will be a fabulous house, if I ever get to design/build it. And that ex-boyfriend of mine will come in handy, since he's in architecture.

2 - which I've wanted years before the xkcd comic

One other thing I forgot to mention - I've never gone into a relationship assuming that it will end, because that has always struck me as illogical.

Where for me, assuming it'll last forever is illogical. I'm a terminal optimist in everything except relationships, it seems. *shrugs*

~Sor

But assuming that it will end seems defeatist - why enter into something if you're not willing to do it long term?

*shrugs* Because I largely am willing to do things long term, but I have enough trouble trusting people on the day to day things. Do you honestly think I could easily just trust someone else to want to be with my fucked up self in the long term?

Keira sweetie, I am painfully insecure, even now, even after being able to say I've gotten significantly better in the last year. I have weird brain things (the denizens), feel more useless than useful when trying to help with tasks (especially cooking, exception dishwashing) and am, well, nineteen, and prone to fits of emo and fits of hyperactivity where I'll suddenly realize just how out there I'm being, and become embarrassed. I'm...not really a desirable long term package.

I still don't always trust that Marc's not going to suddenly come to his senses and break up with me. I still don't always trust that my best friend Veronica isn't suddenly going to come to her senses and stop wanting to hang out with me. I hate to say it, but I think there's really only one person beyond myself who I do trust enough to expect that we could last forever, and she's my goddamn clone --our brainspace reflects off each other in so many other ways, is it any wonder I've been lulled into a sense of security with her?

(And I still get so very jealous when she flirts with other girls. It's stupid, especially as we're both poly, and I don't care, but oh, I am so scared of losing her sometimes.)

Soyeah. I'm willing to try things in the long term. But I've a minor fear of commitment, and I Just Don't Trust People like that. I may want it to be long term, but I'm far too paranoid to ever expect that out of anyone else.

It might be defeatist. It is non-trusting. And this is probably way more behindthewalls than you were looking for.

~Sor

Is it odd that I either agree or disagree with both of you? I enter relationships making neither assumption.

I expect the relationship will last as long as it wants to, which could well be forever (and that, given the previous, would be preferable), but knowing full well there are many reasons it might end.

(I actually have entered into relationships I expected to be short-term, but that was where an imminent long-term separation was expected, and is a special case.)

I never said that I go into relationships assuming they'll last forever - I just don't go into them expecting them to end. While aware that an end is possible, I don't think of it as being in the foreseeable future. (Note that I'm using a fairly tight definition of foreseeable here.)

I'm rediculously loyal to the people I consider myself closest to, perhaps too much so, though I suspect I'm interpreting that slightly differently than you intended. I...I don't know that I completely commit to people. I don't know that I'm able to completely commit to people, due mainly to my own intimacy problems. When I am being With someone, I am with them fully at that time, but I need to be able to pull away and spend time With just myself, or I go crazy.

I do try to keep in touch with my exSOs. Blue and I are good at this. Ksatyr and I....less so. Chris and I are phenomenal at keeping in touch, though we weren't ever technically SOs. It is a little weird to be a shoulder to the guy that broke your heart after he just broke up with his current girlfriend.

I...I am alarmed by the prospect of me becoming a housewife. I think alarmed is the word I want. I do not hate cleaning, and I do not hate cooking (though I'm terrible at it) and I consider myself pretty damn good at raising kids in the short term --hopefully that would translate to the long term. But to be a housewife, I think it would drive me insane. I think it ties into my fear of stagnating or something --I don't ever want to leave Boston, but if I can't go out on adventures once in a while, I'll start to hate my world.

I agree that removing the spaces makes a big difference. Hell, Veronica & I certainly have that ampersand, we've been best friends for the last ten and a half years. Five hundred miles hasn't really done much of anything to our relationship than make it more lonely.

~Sor

PS: I want to visit this fabulous house of yours.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Ampersands and Trust

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*hugs and loves*

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Sharing the inner Kat

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slippery

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This is my taking a deep breath comment.

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But....

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stuffffffff

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Re: stuffffffff, Appendix (probably should be removed for health reasons)

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hugs and loves

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