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So, for teacherclass, we just watched "A Private Universe" which is basically being all "Oh hey, people don't know simple scientific facts like why there are seasons".

This led me to wonder about what other basic knowledge there is that people don't necessarily have. Certainly, it ties in with my basic pop culture thing --while I myself am *woefully* uneducated, there are still things that I will find jawdroppingly shocking if you admit you're not familiar with them. (Like what do you mean someone born, in America, fifteen years after it came out has never read Where the Wild Things Are. HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN!?)

I try very hard to not have any resounding pop culture biases, but I recognize that there is a list in the back of my mind of things I expect people in my circles to be familiar with. If not Flying Circus, every geek ever should probably have seen Holy Grail --even if you hate it, you now get roughly 1200% more references.

Or more importantly, The Princess Bride. I mean, I know I'm biased, what having acted in it, but how do you survive as a geek in this country without having seen The Princess Bride? Hell, while it's an amazing read, I don't even demand you read it, just...not having seen it? Dear lords.

Those are all part of the geek set, and I just more or less expect people to know them. Hell, I quoted "Why are you smiling" "Because I know something you do not know --I am not left handed!" last night, and will probably quote something else in the next twenty four hours, just because that's how I roll.

Additionally, I have a personal set of things that I think everyone ought to experience. I don't necessarily expect my friends to have seen Dr. Horrible or The Middleman, but dear lord, admit those gaps in your experience and I will do the best I can to help you fill them. Or holy hell lords, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. I don't demand anything past the first book, but seriously, if you *haven't* read at least that one? I...I'm afraid I can never look at you in the same way again.¹

((Of course, I lose out on several people's personal sets for not ever being able to get through the second Lord of the Rings book. I'm sorry, I just...can't. I wish I could, but it's really not happening.))

SOYES! What are the overarching things that all geeks need to experience? What are the personal things, that you believe all people in your friends group need to experience?

Oh and bytheway? Before you leave a comment? Take twelve minutes out of your life in order to watch How To Kill A Mockingbird. Yes, yes it is worth it. It is basically what "To Kill a Mockingbird" would have been if Harper Lee had been aware of tvtropes.org's "Rule of Awesome"

~Sor
MOOP!

1: This is totally why Chris and I wouldn't have ever worked out in the long run. He dating KT for a couple years just saved us the inevitable argument and subsequent heartbreak.

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And you have seen Blazing Saddles, right? And I don't mean the version on TV where no one who has seen the movies has any idea of what's going on and everyone who has seen the movie is laughing hysterically.

I..um...no?

...I have to come visit at some point this summer and fix that, don't I?

~Sor

AND YOUR MOTHER SENT YOU OFF TO COLLEGE!?!?!? How will you be expected to succeed in life if you haven't seen Blazing Saddles?!

The whole social fabric of your being is unraveling before your eyes, trailing pure golden threads of schnitzengruben through the quicksand, your heart lifted by Spanish balloons only to be weighted down with a shitload of dimes.

Yes. Come by at some point this summer. You poor dear.

3 creative works that it helps to be really familiar with, in order to communicate with me: Animal House, Holy Grail, and not only Lord of the Rings but the Harvard Lampoon parody Bored of the Rings.

Bonus points if someone catches references to Airplane, Kelly's Heroes, or Support Your Local Sheriff.

Additionally, I have a personal set of things that everyone needs to experience... admit those gaps in your experience and I will do the best I can to fix them for you.

Do be careful with how you do that! I'm one of those people who the harder someone tries to actively sell something to me, the more resistant I get. I'm sure I've missed out on some good stuff¹ because of well-meaning friends recommending "oh, but you *must*!".

Simply communicating what makes _you_² enthusiastic -- and why -- about something can give others a better sense of whether it would appeal to them or not. (Though it's not infallible; I still shudder if I see "Stephen R. Donaldson" on the cover of a book.)

¹Yes, among the many things I have not seen, heard, or read are: Buffy, Dr. Horrible, Babylon 5, Dr. Who...

²I recommend this guy's LiveJournal for some examples of how to review and/or enthuse without overselling: http://spectralbovine.livejournal.com/tag/books.

Mm, I definitely understand that stubbornness thing, and I do try not to super oversell things. I am having a little bit of trouble with Middleman, unless I just let the first episode speak for me: "You know how in comic books, there are all these mad scientists and monsters and aliens, all of whom are bent on either destroying or taking over the world?" "In comic books, sure" "Well it really does work like that."

I'm indifferent to your lack of Buffy or Doctor Who (and I myself have never seen Bab5). For what it's worth, I enjoyed Dr. Horrible because it's a supervillian origin story, with singing. It was well done rediculousness, and stars Neil Patrick Harris, who I find adorable. But, of course, YMMV.

And of course, I should know better than to have used the word 'fix' --I'm certainly not 'broken' for not having seen any of the many (many!) things that I should have. (especially not as I'm not broken, I'm *young*)

As for your list...I've seen Animal House once (and really want to see it again sometime), Holy Grail several times, and Airplane two or three times. (Airplane is probably one of the most quoted movies in The Empty City where I grew up. I just can't manage LotR (and so have seen no reason to read Bored of the Rings) and have just never been introduced to Kelly's Heroes or Support Your Local Sherrif.

Andyeah. Yay movies or something.

~Sor

"Stephen R. Donaldson" is my cue to put the book down and wash my hands. Twice.

The most painful part is that I slogged through the entire first Thomas Covenant trilogy ("oh, but the next book[s] are so much better!"). Thank goodness I read very fast. There were about 30 pages [spoiler: the part about the massacre of the Giants at Seareach] which were superb and chilling -- but then I was returned to the Goddamn Self-Pitying Whiner Programming Already in Progress.

I can't read Heinlein either, no matter how many people tell me _Stranger in a Strange Land_ was simultaneously (1) a major influence on their lives and (2) atypical of his other work. Respecting books and writers as I do, I can count the number of times I've thrown a book across a room on one hand and have fingers left over...

I found the Covenant books to be pretty terrible, too (and the second trilogy was worse than the first, though for some reason I still read them all), but a while later I read The Mirror of Her Dreams and A Man Rides Through, and I recall liking them pretty well. They certainly don't have the same problems that the Covenant books do, though it's been a while so I don't remember exactly what I did like.

Now my brain hurts.

And now I have to pass this on to others.

General:
Star Trek (not every episode by any means, but certainly characters, races, and major events)
Star Wars (definitely the original trilogy, and the prequels can't hurt (except perhaps to watch))
The Lord of the Rings (sorry, but it's true)
At least passing familiarity with major superhero comics
I agree about Monty Python, The Princess Bride, and The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Ghostbusters
The Muppets
Probably Babylon 5, though that may be shading into the personal category
At least passing familiarity with Lovecraft

And a separate category for classic science fiction and fantasy, since I'm not sure they belong above, but they're not just personal favorites, either:
The robot books and the Foundation series, by Asimov
The Earthsea trilogy, by LeGuin
Dune, by Herbert
2001: A Space Odyssey (movie and book) and The City and the Stars, by Clarke
Some amount of Heinlein
Some amount of Poe
The Narnia Series, by Lewis (and maybe the Space Trilogy, too)
The Once and Future King, by T. H. White
1984, by Orwell
The War of the Worlds, by Wells
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, by Verne
The Chronicles of Amber, by Zelazny
At least the first part of the Childe Cycle (a.k.a. the Dorsai series), by Dickson
Watership Down, by Richard Adams

Personal:
The Wizard of Speed and Time
The Martian Chronicles, by Bradbury
Neverwhere
Dark City
The Dark is Rising series, by Susan Cooper
The Chronicles of Prydain, by Lloyd Alexander
Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, by Adams
Red Dwarf
Good Omens, by Gaiman and Pratchett
The Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories, by Leiber
Cat's Cradle and Slaughterhouse 5, by Vonnegut
Everything by Barry Longyear
A Fire Upon the Deep and A Deepness In the Sky, by Vernor Vinge
Some amount of Poul Anderson, Avram Davidson, and Theodore Sturgeon
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

And, in the non-geeky personal favorites category:
The Blues Brothers
Help!

I'm probably forgetting a bunch of things, but that's a start...

Oh, right, Harry Potter should probably go in the general category, not because it's the best thing ever, but because it's so ubiquitous.

i have to keep reminding myself that most people are not TMBG geeks. Heck, even most of the people i hang out with online aren't. Sadness.

Or Rocky Horror. Man, i keep quoting bits of that at my kids and then immediately think, "jinkies, i'm going to have to let them watch that before they'll ever get what i just said. ack." ;D

But then, i have to ask: The Big Orange Splot? If you have not read this, Run, don't walk, and find a copy of it. It's by Daniel Manus Pinkwater. Trust me.

*refuses to believe Sor has not read this*

I HAVE I HAVE! I l *LOVE* The Big Orange Splot, it is a wonderful wonderful book, possibly the best of all children's literature.

~Sor

Not really geek, but I discovered my husband had never read Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs and insisted on rectifying this gross failure of childhood.

Oh man, that's a shame --that was a grand book, and is supposedly getting the movie treatment or something as well. I don't find lack of knowledge as terrifying as Wild Things, but still. Good for you.

~Sor

i heart princess bride.
i heart blazing saddles.
i really heart buckaroo banzai across the 8th dimension.

Haven't seen Blazing Saddles, like I mentioned above, but I have seen the other two, and totally need to watch Buckaroo Banzai again.

~Sor

Real Genius is right up there and I see nobody has mentioned it yet...

I have seen it though!

...as of the past two months. Shh.

~Sor

Memory leaks in C.

Whicha who what?

~Sor

Yeah, it feels something like that.

I was just ranting out loud to Harena about how the "real world" characters in the Inkworld series (which I've been reading to the chitlins for their bedtime story) seem to be almost completely oblivious to the benefits which 800 or so years of additional civilization has brought them.

What I wrote was too long to go here, so I posted it over here (http://wiki.hypertwins.org/User:Woozle/blog/2009-04-30_1751_A_rational_look_at_Inkworld) instead. (Comments are welcome in either place.)

Answering the actual question: you've covered most of the area where "quotable" and "humorous" intersect with "SF"; the following items are sort of outliers, then, in that they only cover 1 or 2 of those areas:
* Vorkosigan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga) (especially... especially... ah hell, read 'em all, in chronological order) - pure SF, grounded in empathy
* The Rutles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rutles) - music and quotable humor (like Spinal Tap, but earlier)
* The Goon Show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goon_Show) - humor and the systematic application of illogic; spiritual ancestor of Python (but nobody on this side of the Atlantic seems to "get" them; maybe it's an acquired taste, like Marmite)
* Airplane! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airplane!) and/or Police Squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Squad!): funny, quotable
* Discworld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld) is, like, The Hitchhiker's Guide to Fantasy. I read it to Harena in the same voice used for the BBC's H2G2 radio show (Peter Jones as "The Book").

I could go on, but I'm starting to have to think harder, so maybe that means it's time to stop.

Sound isn't working at the moment, so can't watch the video you linked... feh.

I learned a whole lot about justice today.

I tend to assume that everyone I meet knows who Captains Kirk and Picard are, has read Lord of the Rings and has seen the three Star Wars movies. I'm surprised if someone hasn't seen Princess Bride or Holy Grail, and I expect most people my age to know PBS kids shows. I also expect most people to be familiar with the basic Shakespeares, the Odyssey and the general plot of the New Testament, I realize upon reflection. If someone didn't recognize the names "Scylla and Charybdis", I would be a little embarrassed for them.

Musically, I would be shocked if someone didn't know the Beatles. I expect people to know older and modern classics - Talking Heads, Radiohead, Anthony Stewart Head, that sort of thing - but most of my expectations depend on the way I categorize the person in question. Then there are the things that I expect no-one to know, thus increasing my enjoyment when I'm wrong: Red Dwarf, old series Doctor Who, the band Porcupine Tree ... those are always exciting.

SOYES! What are the overarching things that all geeks need to experience?
Star Trek, Star Wars, a passing familiarity with comics (or at least the movies made from them)... Monty Python... Hitchhiker's... LotR (at least the movies), The Matrix (at least the first one), Harry Potter... and xkcd.

What are the personal things, that you believe all people in your friends group need to experience?
Firefly, Dr. Horrible... Mel Brooks movies are common in my social circle (the aforementioned Blazing Saddles is one of them - though I haven't actually seen that one, either)... a smattering of webcomics (Questionable Content, Something*Positive, the aforementioned xkcd)... Fringe! Bones! House! HEROES!!! Oh, and Chuck, too. And... Dexter, though I wouldn't recommend it for everyone (some people wouldn't take to it, others I fear might a little too much).

Fringe is one of my favoritest shows. It has so much heart. It also has conspiracies, and freaky stuff. But mostly I watch it for the wonderful cast. It's one of those things where I wish I could write fanfic for it so I'd be able to experience it more, but nothing I write could ever be as good as the show itself.

I love the book The Princess Bride. But every time I've tried to watch the movie, I have fallen asleep or gotten extremely bored. Same with RHPS.

Anyway, I think it's silly to have, like, a list of Geek Things to do or watch or see, just because you think you need to in order to Be A Geek. I mean, if you're investing that much time into actually *trying* to Be A Geek, that's... I don't know even know what to say about that. But it's silly to experience only the things, or try to experience all the things, in one certain labeled clique group. Nor is it fair to expect everyone you know to have experienced the same things as you to the point of considering a relationship doomed if they haven't read a certain book. Good heavens.
Go read some chick lit, or something. Get out of your box, woman!

I think it's less that they are things that I think I (or others) need to see to be a geek, and more a list of things that are often enjoyed by geeky folks, and being that I often enjoy geeky things, I will probably enjoy them too. Or whatever.

As for my footnote, I was speaking *entirely* in jest. My relationship with Chris would've failed regardless. His reading Hitchhikers or not has no impact, nor does the book have any actual impact on any of my other relationships.

I do read chick lit on occasion. The most recently read books I can remember are Twilight, which is just about the *definition* of chicklit, Temeraire/His Magesty's Dragon, which is the most hard fantasy book I've read in an age, and Transmetropolitan 0, which is a depressing, cynical...it should be a comic book, but I see 0 as almost more an illustrated series of essays. I'm currently working on "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman" which is an autobiographical collection of stories about Richard P. Feynman, one of the most fabulous people ever to actually walk the Earth, after Joshua A Norton.

The closest thing I have to a box is my predilection for young adult fiction. It's like grown-up fiction except it can't rely on sex and gratuitous violence to sell the story. Larklight, Slave Day, Boy Meets Boy, I am the Messenger, the Clue books...all young adult, all excellent, and come from three different distinct genres --Larklight is steampunk/fantasy/sci-fi, the Clue series is mysteryish, and the other three are high school stories. Boy Meets Boy would quite plausibly pass for chicklit --it's a romance story (and I will defend like mad the fact that it is the best romance I've ever read), and that's not even taking in the whole "girls love gay boys" thing or something.

~Sor

Jesus Lord, Twilight is not chick lit. Twilight is YA fantasy thing. Some chick lit writers actually know what they're doing, and produce actual quality writing. But as usual, the worst ones are the loudest so the genre gets a bad reputation.

Also I've read Boy Meets Boy. All I remember about it is that I was somewhere between neutral and dislike.

Anyway. If you ask only for "geeky" stuff (and I really don't think it's healthy to be using these labels after high school), then how will you ever find out if there's other stuff out there that you might enjoy?

What do you recommend, then? Beyond Austen, who I know I need to read, and will probably never actually get around to.

I am incredibly amused by your saying you don't think it's healthy to use the label after high school. I'm a geek. I know a lot of geeks, I date geeks, my mom's a geek, I will be a geek my entire life.

In my personal lexicon, a geek is someone who has interests outside the mainstream culture. A nerd is someone who excels in school and enjoys traditional academics, and a dork is someone who is some degree of socially inept. There's a lot of overlap, I myself have bits of all three in me, but I'm primarily geeky.

I suppose I was asking for a list of pop culture with heavy geek bias, but then again, I'd say a good percentage of my friends list self identifies as geek. For what it's worth, only the first part of my question --what do you think all geeks ought to see-- specifically asks for geeky stuff. The second half, What are the personal things, that you believe all people in your friends group need to experience? doesn't mention geek at all, and I've had a handful of suggestions that aren't geek at all --check out kittikattie's reccomendation of "Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs" or NCarraway's suggestion of The Beatles.

If the majority of the things you recommend to people, or think that everyone ought to experience aren't geek, more power to you. I'm still interested in knowing what you consider to be classic pop culture knowledge, that all folk should have, if, indeed, you have such things.

~Sor

Jane Austen =/= chick lit

I... don't think I'd consider Jane Austen to be chick lit. Sophie Kinsella is kind of awesome. I used to refer to her as guilty pleasure reading, but then I realized I legitimately liked her. She has consistent, realistic characters, she doesn't make any flaming Bad Writer mistakes common to the rest of the genre, like coming to a halt to describe someone's appearance. And she's bloody amazing at first person narrative. And she's just fun.

The thing about those labels is that you're forgetting that you're a person, with interests that (hopefully) vary across the spectrum of what might be mainstream or academic. I like sci-fi, but I also like chick lit and nonfiction. Sometimes I wear grungy comfy clothes, sometimes I wear spikes and chains, sometimes I wear classy coordinated outfits, but I always like the way I look. I have some characteristics that society would call "manly," and some that people would consider "girly." What does that make me? Does that make me an androgynous Gothgeek with a preppy twist? Or can I just be a person? Why define yourself by wrapping your broad scope of interests into a tiny little box? Moreover, why use a tiny little box that came from the opinions of the masses? The main point of labels in high school is to try to feel like you're a part of something bigger because you haven't grown into your own identity yet. But once people have grown up a bit, it tends to be like those lesbians who pretty much do nothing with their lives except Be Lesbonic. You're more than your sexuality or the movies you watch.

Besides which, it's pretty much impossible to have interests "outide the mainstream culture." There are different streams, lots of them, most of them resorting to that label thing again. If tons of people didn't like something, how would you find out about it?

There are a few things I recommend to everyone ever. The book Jane Eyre, Richard Brautigan's poems, Isaac Asimov's robot stories, Seinfeld, the book I Know This Much Is True, the book Next of Kin, Sopor Aeternus and the Ensemble of Shadows, Assassins, the movie Mean Girls, the movie Heathers, the movie Killer Klowns From Outer Space, Charlie Chaplin, Disney movies... this is getting to be rather long. Anyway, you get the idea.

A friend of mine who is...I think 38 was surprised to find that I had heard and read of Where the Wild Things Are, so there's that.

I don't think there's anything that all geeks need to experience in order to somehow be worthy of the label. There are many things that I personally think everyone should experience, but that's only because I enjoy them so much myself. Basically, the way I see it there are three categories: things I like, things I don't like, and things I haven't seen/heard/read/etc. which I may or may not like. If I by some chance quote or reference something (which doesn't happen often), and whoever's listening doesn't get it, they don't get it. No big deal.

I've done quite a bit of thinking about labels and self-identification, and at least for me, I can do without them. I'm just me, whatever things I do/watch/listen to/read/enjoy/etc. etc. and what they may be associated with.

Or more importantly, The Princess Bride. I mean, I know I'm biased, what having acted in it, but how do you survive as a geek in this country without having seen The Princess Bride? Hell, while it's an amazing read, I don't even demand you read it, just...not having seen it? Dear lords.

Wait, what?

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Shudder

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Re: Shudder

It's All Your Fault!

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a tangent and a reply

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